Yeast nutrient information
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  1. #1
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    Default Yeast nutrient information

    Hi,

    My local home brew shops doesn't stock Fermaid. What they do stock is a "Yeast Nutrient" that lists Thiamin and Vitamin B complex, It also stocks DAP.

    I have two meads started.

    #1
    Started Sunday May 7th
    22L must (fireweed)
    SG 1.090
    Lalvin EC-1118 (2packs) started without energizer but carefully brought to temperature.
    5 lbs mixed thawed wild berries picked last year on the property (salmon berry, huckleberry, blueberry)
    1/4 tsp Potassium metabisulfite
    3/4 tsp yeast nutrient,
    1/2 tsp DAP


    after 72 hrs
    3/4 tsp yeast nutrient,
    1/2 tsp DAP

    Aerated one or two times daily for the first ten days with a drill and paint bit

    My gravity reading now 14 days later is 1.022. It started off quite well but seems to be lagging, it was at 1.030 six days ago. With only one mead under my belt (literally now) I am unsure if this was really lagging. Now this is where my impatience may have been a problem, today I added 1/4 tsp DAP and 1/2 tsp Yeast nutrient. OOps, maybe, I don't know.


    #2
    Monday, May 22nd.
    18L must (fireweed honey) @ 21C
    SG 1.100
    Lalvin EC-1118 (2packs) started without energizer but carefully brought to temperature.
    2 lbs thawed organic Black currants 4lbs thawed organic raspberries in a bag.
    1/4 tsp Potassium metabisulfite
    1 tsp yeast nutrient,
    3/4 tsp DAP

    aerated or degassed twice daily with paint bit and drill.

    Now going strong, haven't checked the gravity. It is due a feeding, but I am getting antsy about my "yeast Nutrient" and DAP combo, is it the right thing?

    What I am wondering, is how to convert the "yeast nutrient" to fit a reasonable staggered yeast nutrient addition or is it recommended I get busy and find a supply of Fermaid? Also looking for a little advice or recommendations on how to best move this on to a drinkable mead.

    Thanks
    Sorry it was a little longer post than i intended.
    Last edited by IBJake; 05-24-2017 at 11:06 AM.

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    You added the potassium metabisulfite (K-Met) with the yeast during primary fermentation? I use KMet but only as a sanitizer or after secondary fermentation to provide a "protective gas" during bulk aging. I know it grabs free oxygen molecules when it gases and always thought it was a fermentation "neutralizer." I'm interested to see if some of the more experienced fermenters have used it in conjunction with fermentation.
    “The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    KC, MO, USA
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    >My local home brew shops don't stock Fermaid.

    Lots of places on line check amazon just be ware of small quantizes.
    This one has free shipping on 50 bucks and good prices, you will have to check to see if they ship to CA.

    http://www.brewandwinesupply.com/

    You may not want to use too much DAP especially in later step feedings your yeast may not be able to utilized it. Others might know more on this subject.

    Fermaid K has DAP Fermaid O does not.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    I quite often add Potassium Metabisulphite (K-Met) to my must Particularly when making a Melomel. I use it to sterilize the must. I let it stand 24 hours before adding yeast. So the SO2 can bind with any free O2 and dissipate. I then stir vigorously before adding the yeast. This introduces O2 for the yeast to develop. If you add K-Met the same time as the yeast you are trying to start yeast in an environment with No or little Free O2. Which is necessary for the yeast to develop. You did not say weather or not the yeast was added 24 hours after the K-Met or not. For the sake of discussion I shall assume you had.
    Dap is fine with the basic nutrient. I like the an ratio of nutrient double the Dap. For example 4 TSP nutrient to 2 TSP DAP. Especially if the dap is in combined with food grade urea. Since you added some berries they also provide some nutrient also.
    However your Dap/nutrient was insufficient for the volumes you made. Honey is notorious for being nutrient deficient in must, and requires 1 tsp per gallon of must even in combination with the nutrient. I would want a minimum overall addition of 1 TSP per Gallon. One needs to take into consideration the volume of nutrient depleted by the initial growth phase of the yeast which often leaves the latter part of the fermentation low on nutrients.
    I would have use 6 and 5 TSP of dap/Nutrient respectively. I would have added 1/2 of it at the onset. and the remainder when the SG reached 50% of it's beginning value to provide needed nutrition during the final portion of the ferment.
    A cautionary note is necessary here, NEVER ADD DAP once the SG has gone below 1/3 the initial value. Doing so can leave the ferment with unused Nitrogen this can lead to lead to the development of Hydrogen Sulfide which can ruin the mead. (at times the necessary can become an evil).
    Also aerating vigorously (with a drill and paint bit) for ten days is excessive. Stirring for 5 to 7 when fruit is present would be more than sufficient. and 3 to 5 without fruit. We are not degassing, Simply adding Oxygen to the must to promote healthy development of the yeast.
    Yeast develops and multiplies aerobically (in the presence of Oxygen). And produces alcohol anaerobically (in the absence of Oxygen) after the initial development of the yeast we want it to develop anaerobically. Beside making alcohol the process also produces carbon dioxide (CO2) which shields the must from O2. At this stage of the ferment the must can be affected adversely by exposure to O2.

    I noticed that your recipe did not include Pectic Enzyme. Pectic Enzyme breaks down the pectin in fruits allowing the sugars, flavor and nose of the fruit to be better imparted into the mead and reducing pectin haze in the mead. Pectic enzyme can be added at any time.
    EC-1118 is a workhorse yeast and usually a fast fermenter. Not generally the first choice of mead yeasts for that reason. Meads benefit greatly from a slow cool ferment allowing for the maturation of flavor profile and nose. It may be a blessing that your ferment slowed. I like to keep ambient temperatures in the mid 60sF which usually results in a ferment temperature around 70F .
    Hope this helps Some!

  6. #5
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    Good post Tenbears.
    This is one of several threds in recent months where people have mentioned that they are vigorously degassing during the primary fermentation. This puzzles me, for I have never seen a wine or mead recipe that mentions degassing in primary, only gently stirring the first few days of primary to oxygenate the must. A lot of people lately are misunderstanding the use of degassing, or the difference of stirring and degassing, so I have to wonder where they are getting this faulty information!

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    Concur with Hops Brewer's assessment of your post Tenbears.

    IBJake, I know this conversation took a bit of a chemistry turn but did it answer your questions?
    “The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    Thanks for the replies,

    #1 has gone to 1.012 this morning

    #2 is furiously bubbling and already down to 1.075
    I added 2tsp yeast nutrient and 1tsp DAP

    The process I was trying to follow was from the Steve Piatz book "The Complete Guide to Making Mead".

    Eikel. The process calls for treating tap water with a campden tablet for the must, I assumed this was to remove Chlorine. I am using well water though, so my concern was mainly about introduced yeasts from the fruit. I added the K-Met in place of the Campden tablet. I think I will do a little more research on this.


    Flower planter - Thanks I'll try them for the next batch. Amazon filters to none when I check the ships to Canada box.

    Tenbears, thanks, lots of useful info on your post.

    1 I will do a little more research on the K-met, but I like your suggestion to allow the must to stand for 24 hours before adding the yeast, I did not do this, but will next time.


    2 I am a little confused by the amounts and how you arrived at them. You mention 2 to 1 nutrient to DAP but the second part of your suggestion calls for, 6 and 5 TSP of dap/Nutrient respectively am I misreading? The process I was following called for 3/4tsp at initial, 3/4tsp at 48 hours, 3/4tsp at 96 hours and 3/4tsp at 30% FG. It also says half that when fruit s added. This is of Fermaid-K, and again I'm not sure how this relates to my nutrient. I missed the 48 hour as I was getting paranoid about amounts, but think I have caught up.

    4 I did add 1/4tsp of DAP to #1 at just under 30% of the planned value, hopefully I won't pay for that, it seems to be going again so hopefully all is well.

    5 I like the pectin idea, will look in to it.

    6 EC1118, fast starting, high alcohol tolerance and low nitrogen requirements. I will try another yeast that helps promote better flavour profile and nose, hopefully when I get a better understanding of the chemistry.


    Thanks again

    Jake
    Last edited by IBJake; 05-24-2017 at 04:24 PM. Reason: typo

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    Hops Brewster, the Steve Piatz book I am using for process says "You must stir the must several times a day for the first eight days of fermentation. The fermenting mead is saturated with carbon dioxide, which can become toxic to the yeast and result in reduced fermentation performance., and stirring releases it."

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    my concern was mainly about introduced yeasts from the fruit
    That's also how I use it with the must but as you already noted Tenbear's recommendation to let it stand for 24 hrs before stirring vigorously (same as the campden)
    “The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    This seems at initial glance to be an excellent article on the subject

    Advanced Nutrients in Meadmaking
    Travis Blount-Elliott

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...FOqv6JEk/edit#

    The linked batch calculating spreadsheet looks to be a handy tool.

    "Yeast become unable to utilize DAP when the must reaches about 9% ABV." A handy piece of information to remember

    (posted so I remember to study before starting the next batch)
    Last edited by IBJake; 05-24-2017 at 04:17 PM. Reason: more info

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    IBJake The 6 and 5 TSP of dap/Nutrient was in reference to the batches of must the 6 TSP was for the 22L which is slightly under 6 U.S. gallons
    and the 5 TSP was for the 18L which is just under 5 U.S gallon. Sorry if I confused you.

    "Yeast become unable to utilize DAP when the must reaches about 9% ABV." A handy piece of information to remember
    And the reason for my cautionary Note!

    The K-met was by the way a wise choice in spite of the timing, As fireweed is known to be associated with high concentrations of a Wild yeast. Early immigrants often used it's stems as yeast sources in many ferments.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    Quote Originally Posted by IBJake View Post
    Hops Brewster, the Steve Piatz book I am using for process says "You must stir the must several times a day for the first eight days of fermentation. The fermenting mead is saturated with carbon dioxide, which can become toxic to the yeast and result in reduced fermentation performance., and stirring releases it."
    Well, silly me! I believed all the other books I've read, and other booze-makers I've discussed this with, that gently (not vigorously) stirring the must daily during primary (a few days to a week or so) is to help give the yeast the oxygen it needs during the initial phase of fermentation. The majority of the CO2 releases naturally via all those tiny bubbles you see. If it releases the toxic CO2, so be it. Who am I to argue?
    On the other hand, "degassing" is one of the final steps I take before bottling. Using a degassing tool or a paint mixing blade attached to a drill, I vigorously stir the wine/mead to eliminate all gasses from it, so that I can have a perfectly still, bubble free product. Of course, if I want sparkling wine or mead, I do not take this step.

    But I haven't written a book.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    Thanks Tenbears, I should have been able to figure that out.

    Good to know about the yeast, fireweed seems to have quite a few uses, I am going try tea this year.

    You didn't rate the EC-1118 very highly, my next batch is going to include 4 litres of frozen crab apple juice I was given. Any suggestions on a yeast that will be better?

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    Hops Brewster,

    I was just quoting the source of my information. If you have other sources, I am definitely interested. I have started the Ken Schramm book but haven't made it all that far yet.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Yeast nutrient information

    Understand The science behind fermentation can yield a great deal of valuable information. As stated above "Yeast develops and multiplies aerobically (in the presence of Oxygen). And produces alcohol anaerobically (in the absence of Oxygen) after the initial development of the yeast we want it to develop anaerobically. Beside making alcohol the process also produces carbon dioxide (CO2) which shields the must from O2. At this stage of the ferment the must can be affected adversely by exposure to O2."
    EC-1118 is generally a workhorse yeast. It is not uncommon for it to complete a ferment in a week. And I mean to 0.995 SG We Place a air lock On a carboy after the development period of the yeast. (Usually 3 to 5 days) To Prevent further exposure to Oxygen which is only necessary for the yeast multiplication. Co2 is a by product of the natural yeast life cycle, and is necessary to facilitate the production of alcohol. when oxygen is introduce too vigorously or too late in the fermentation an imbalance between yeast multiplication and alcohol production can cause off flavors or other undesirable conditions within the must. For quality mead/Wine production we want the must to be shielded from excess O2 after the yeast has reached sufficient numbers to complete the fermentation, the CO2 does this for us. You will Notice in my above post I stressed a slow cool ferment. Gently adding O2 at the onset of fermentation lends itself well to this as it does not create an environment where the yeast becomes hard charging because of extremely rapidly multiplying yeasties trying to outcompete yeasties in the production phase. Only to have a multitude of yeasties forcing their way through a fast hot ferment in another day or so.

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