Considering changing to Langs - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    MslPossibly true but abby was pretty adimate about his measurements and his reasons for them.
    LOL….. more “cult of warre”
    from the man himself
    We preferred the 300 x 400 mm frame because it simplified our calculations
    then he went and cut it in at the request of his helpers…. Then one day do to a supply issue he went foundation less
    No magic here, square is a good shape and “about” that size is good( as used by many outer ) but the exact dimensions were chosen to suit man. No reason not to round them in to inches and to suit economy of materials

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsof View Post
    But if you don't use frames and don't use foundation it is a complete pain in the rear to take out the comb and look to see what is going on. You are going to see a lot of wonky comb. You are going to see a lot of cross-comb. You are going to see a ton of large cell comb (i.e. drone comb)
    that all depends on your top bars and management , its not going to be any worse than most other topbar hives. Yes if you put in big fat warre type top bars that were set up for fixed comb you going to have issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsof View Post
    He designed a system for use (let's be honest) that a peasant could put up
    He died in the 1950s…..not sure how many peasants were running around

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    msl
    I see your point but at the size he ended up with, its about an 8 frame medium or a five frame nuc. I did convert to inches and that makes for about a 8.5 inch board. The hive might be cut down to using a 6 inch board but to get any brood area in the box that is pretty small, I would still have to put two of them together or have really small light boxes and a bunch of them. "My" biggest reason for using the 8.5 inch board is that I really don't have much imagination of my own and so when i build things, I usually find a plan to build from and do my crappy building as close to it as i can. I do cut my own lumber and my logs average me an 8 inch board which really makes building medium langs handy with out having to dig through a bunch of boards to find what I want to use. I usually have to stack the boards for at least all summer and it is much easier just trying to end up with atleast an 8 incher from a wood handling perspective.

    I do think that the warre does look pretty good at those dimentions.
    Cheers
    gww

    Ps He did cut the 400 mm to two hundred for the man but was still adamate that ending up at 400 for the the brood nest using two of his boxes was best because he thought that was the best size.

    I have heard some of his frame portion of his arguement was left out of some transulations but the one I read he made a real case for having fixed top bars and gave his reasons of why frames were of no advantage. Mostly due to the unoccupied space causing extra heating and there for useing more stores.
    Last edited by gww; 04-25-2017 at 09:43 PM.
    zone 5b

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    400 to 220... not sure why the extra 40mm given his topbars were only 9mm or so
    Point being it doesn't matter if you cut it in to 2 boxes, or 3... ie 8.5+8.5 = 17. vs the sam comfort example I gave of 5.5(6" nominal)+5.5+5.5 = 16.5"
    and extra space below the cluster doesn't have a huge effect, ie the whole point of nadireing
    also lets not forget the box sizes given were tuned for Warres area... one size does NOT fit all as show by all the different lang combos with each being the "standard" in different areas, bees don't do absolutes, neither should beekeepers
    Last edited by msl; 04-25-2017 at 10:47 PM.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    msl
    I don't dissagree with that. I do add, and this is for the bee keeper not the bees, it seems having the bees space decent is the real important thing as far as future handling of the comb is concerned. This seems to be more important than actual size of the boxes. I don't mind trying to stick with what some one else has come up with cause when starting, a person needs some kind of guidence and then when he learns a bit off of that it gives him more experiance to maby see the possibilities for variances. I do realize bees can live about anywhere.

    Bee keeping does take a little more then just the bees in a box and for a new guy picking some way to start, Having an overall management practice to follow has to help a bit.

    I like warres ideoligies but for now am running medium langs, but i am probly going to eventually fill the warre and run it simular to what he was preaching and just compare for myself. I feel lost most of the time when using the langs due to there being just so many ways that poeple get from point A to point B and many seem to work and so with to many options it is hard to ever know if you are doing things the best way they could be done (at least for me).

    I have two long langs also an if I don't get overloaded will proby play with them also a bit.

    I have not read much of what sam comfort is doing but it sounds interesting also.

    Its all just a learning experiance right now to me as luckily I don't have to make this a job that keeps my children fed.

    Thanks for explaining the points you made further.
    gww
    zone 5b

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    I have not read much of what sam comfort is doing but it sounds interesting also.

    First off, you need to read him. I looked him up when he was mentioned on this thread and he is hilarious to read even if you don't care about his beekeeping. He is definitely a philosopher, writer, and artist as well as a beekeeper.

    What I got from him is that bees don't need us and that we only think they do as a result of our God complex. What's wrong with bees? Nothing. What's wrong with us? Don't get him started.

    For an instance, he is in favor of going without chemicals and letting bees more or less take care of themselves. The solution to the mite problem for him is to let it run its course which will yield bees which are more resistant to mites and mites which are less resistant to bees. When we treat for mites, he says, only the resistant mites survive and their genes get passed on creating a line of super mites. The list of bee disorders and diseases is very long he also points out, and he has nicknamed his strain of bees Zombees because they have to be the flying dead as they haven't been treated.

    I do know this, when my dad died he left us with five or six hives which were stuck in the woods behind the house and left alone until I discovered them at least five years later. They were fine, and I was able to manage them as a hard-headed teenageer and get a lot of honey from them over the next few years. I ended up selling them to a beekeeper when I went to college. Maybe leaving them alone is good advice.
    Last edited by roddo27846; 04-26-2017 at 08:19 AM.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Thanks for this post -- we are new to Warre's, and our bees did not go beyond two boxes. They did well in those two boxes, but swarmed rather than build comb in the under-nadired third box. Maybe this year we'll try supering.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Last year my bees drew out beautiful comb in the original box and with a couple empty frames left I nadired an empty box with wax starter. Never made an attempt to move down and swarmed out, failed to requeen and died out. Sunday before last I installed a pack of nasty Italians in the same box with two frames of cut out comb banded in and top feeder. I went threw the box yesterday, 10 days after install just to check on them. The little monsters had filled all the frames except the 2 end which were about 20% and the queen was on one of the end frames! Didn't see any swarm cells but the comb is still so fragile I didn't want to get to agressive. Against my better judgment I nadired another box that bees had used before. We shall see. On a side note it rained most of the day hear. I walked by my hives on the way to work and my nasty Italians (they will light you up in an instant) were snug inside. My sweet carni girls were flying back and forth like it was sun bathing weather!lol

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    I've been following this thread with some interest because I have a dilemma. I have agreed to take over two unwanted packages. The packages will be in my hands in five days.

    I have only one more Langstroth bottom board and top. I can make any equipment I need but I'm probably not going to have much extra time. I definitely won't have the time to build a long Langstroth hive that I've also been wanting to experiment with.

    A couple of years ago I cut out all the pieces for a five box Warre from 24mm stock I milled. I put together the base and top, but didn't assemble the boxes because they take up less space stored flat. I could assemble it in a couple of hours and hive the second package in it. Or I could hive the second package in a nuc until I can build more gear and stay all Langstroth.

    As I've read this thread I've waffled on my decision. I've been wanting to experiment with a Warre (with frames). At the same time, I worry that I will just be setting myself up for compatibility hassles with my other equipment.

    So once again I find that this hobby has put me in a position of not being able to make up my mind. But thanks to this thread at least the decision will be a little more informed.
    Zone 5B

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    JC
    If it is any consulation, I caught a swarm out of my own hives and the warre was sitting right there and I almost pulled the trigger but then ended up putting it in a lang hive. I am eventually going to use the warre I think. I guess it depends on your ambition level, if your sole goal is to run bees like a busness, I would say stick with the langs and keep everything the same. If your goal is more to have fun and learn, I would use the warres just for the experiance of it.

    I am exactly like you when making up my mind or not making it up should I say. If I would not have had the empty lang sitting right there and the warre was, I probly would have filled it today rather then run to the shed and get equiptment.

    I have two long langs sitting there also that are empty. I find the draw to fill the warre to be the strongest just to have the experiance of seeing for myself but just have few enough bees right now that I am still scared of losing them all and so am putting off the experiance for just a little longer.

    I am going to do it sometime in the future when I am absolutly sure that a queen is with what I am putting in it. So first I have to get better at locating queens and then I may take the step. If you do use the warre, I hope a year from now you tell us how it went.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Ok, it is inevitable, one of those unwanted packages is going in that Warre I cut out two years ago.

    I spent Sunday putting together the boxes and making frames for it. I learned one thing from that: I'm glad I just purchased frames for my Langstroths. What a colossal pain in the butt!

    I built 45 frames, enough for five boxes and three extras. I milled the first 32 top bars with a Vee comb guide then decided that was too much hassle so I made the rest with just a groove to put a starter strip of foundation in. I think I'll start them on the frames with a foundation strip. If I ever need any more frames I'll just chop up a store bought Langstroth frame, I'm not doing that again. At least the wood was cheap, I bought a split 2x6 for a buck and a half off the cull pile at the lumber store and milled it into the frame parts.
    Zone 5B

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Yea I just use Lang deep frames and just chop the top bar to length leaving one end original then just shape the chopped end with table saw. Same with bottom bar and leave the sides stock. I make my boxes Lang deep. Works fine and the bees could care less. Only problem is that moving down to lower box. I added one about a week ago as the original box I put the package in was about 75% drawn after 2 weeks! Went back in yesterday and they had not started moving down but outside frames are now 50% and this queen is super girl. Caped brood frame full with just upper tips of frames honey and she missed maybe 6 cells in the whole frame on one side. This things fixing to explode and I need them to move ASAP!!

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    JC
    My warre has no windows and is fixed frame. I caught a swarm the very next day after I responded earlier. This is your fault.


    Cheers
    gww
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  14. #33
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    JC
    My warre has no windows and is fixed frame. I caught a swarm the very next day after I responded earlier. This is your fault.


    Cheers
    gww
    Beautiful. You won't be sorry.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    roddo
    Wether I am sorry or not will probly depend on if I killed the queen when hiving them. See all them dead bees down there and there are a bunch more squished between the two boxes were I turned the box I was using as a funnel back up right which put the top bars on top. I am surprized I kill so many bees as I was trying to be slow and sure. Then my feeder leaked and I had to take it off and I am sure some unprepared bees had to start out fighting. I painted the feeder one more time to help with leaks and put it back on today. All I can say is that if the queen is alive, the bees are still there and seemed to be festooning from about 5 top bars. I know the risk but am an optimist because if she is gone, I can't do much about it.

    I am still excited cause I am sure of one thing. They are drawing some comb and no matter what happens. I will have that.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Queen Isabella is still there. Don't worry. You can do stupid all day long and everything will be fine. Try to be perfect it will screw up. remember I wrote earlier that I went through my nasty Italian hive that better move down. Well the very end frame once again I pulled out and briefly look for the queen and set it to the side then went through the rest of the frames. Couldn't find the Queen. Went backwards through the frames I still did not find her. Picked up the end frame off the ground they're only was partially drawn in few bees on it and guess what I saw? A Big O fat plump Queen with a big yellow. Right and her Center! There is a reason why stupid reproduces!lol

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    because if she is gone, I can't do much about it
    Your a bee keeper with resources, you can fix it if you need too!
    Try my vampire queen rearing
    Take a Bamboo Skewer cut to the size of your top bars and impale a small strip or chunk of comb with eggs/just hatching larva in it and set it in the hive on the rests, or hang it below on a bit of wire, or staple gun it to the bottom of a topbar
    photo 4 (2).jpgphoto 3 (3).jpg
    I have been experimenting with it this year, we shale see how it goes, you can also take a bigger chunk and hang the comb in normally

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Jlock
    I have 6 hives right now that I am not yet sure of the queen status. I really don't worry too much but do do a lot of dumb and feel pretty dumb most of the time around bees. I am a lucky person lots of times and my dumbness doesn't hurt me like the possibilities say they could

    Msl
    That is a pretty neat trick and I am glad you shared it with me.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Considering changing to Langs

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Try my vampire queen rearing
    Excellent. I love the term too. Keep us posted on your success.
    Last edited by JConnolly; 05-09-2017 at 02:41 AM.
    Zone 5B

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