bone head split so far, somebody save the day. - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Hive beetles can get ahead of a hive if they are weakened, but one beetle on occasion may not be a concern. They enter and try to set up shop, but the bees can keep them harassed where they don't make headway. I had a hive last year in sun, but it sat on a deck which meant cool damp ground underneath. There were also a couple bushes next to the hive. It had beetles a lot later last year, but the were never allowed to do harm. This spring beetles still were in the hive, but I moved it to full sun on hard ground with no shade nearby, and the beetles went away. It's the only hive that had some beetles, and there were dozens.

    About patience in a thread, I remember going through the same thing, and I am glad to be helpful, if I am actually helping. I hope I don't get all full of myself and all huffy about someone who doesn't get some of the basics yet.

    I don't know what to think about the cell in the hive. Is it by chance an empty one that has the door shut back up? There's also a chance it went laying worker already and they are trying to make a queen with drone brood, but it's quite early for that. If a virgin queen mated and laid very early, they could have a cell, but that doesn't seam logical to happen.

    Our flow ended last year a couple weeks after it started in early June. It wasn't too great because it didn't rain after mid May or so. I don't know exactly how long it would go, but I am assuming into July a bit if the weather and rain is good. All that sugar, you could feed if needed to keep them building up. We could get a good fall flow too, for wintering stores. Last option, you can combine them late in the summer if needed. No sense getting rid of a queen if you end up having them.

    I am just trying to help with your hope in Queenlyness catching on. It sounds so noble.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Danial
    Ok, my questions for now have been answered and so what ever I write next is just converation that I don't expect any one to have to answer.

    I looked through four hives during the first real warm spell in february and the biggest one was a double deep hive that was just loaded with bee. It had a ton of hive beetle in it and the guys said he thought it would die because the beetles would not be so thick unless something was wrong. I mean it was packed with bees.

    I went to a bee club meeting last night which I don't do too often. Somebody ask about adding nurse bees to a hive to strengthen it and I said why not just shake a frame of nurse bees in front of the hive. A big uproar started about how that wouldn't work and my mentor told me I didn't have enough experiance to be advising yet. I don't think he was trying to be mean but more that he really cares about the club and is the guy that most ask stuff to. I really try and be careful on the things I tackle as far as advice goes but do believe I was correct in the advice and even not doing the bee keeping thing for long, some things can be learned by reading. I think I am going to try it sometime for my own sake now.

    I want to help people on here but don't want to lead them astray and also relie a bit on somebody smarter to call me on it if I do make a mistake cause I don't want to cause any harm. I also have real weak areas that I need help on and some that I should even know better by now. I still say though that if I do know something and I am pretty sure I am not screwing up, it is better to share it with a person who does not know it.

    The cell in the hive, it looks as good as any I have seen and not like the pictures of laying worker cells I have seen. Now the one that was vertical that I destroyed looked like some of the pictures. I don't think laying worker is an issue cause in my mind if they had a cell to the point of capping there would be some capped drone brood some where and I did not see but them two queen cell anomallies. It might be a test of one bee becomeing a laying worker or something along those lines. I almost stuck my putty knife in it but thought I better mention it here before I did anything stupid due to not knowing enough.

    All that sugar, you could feed if needed to keep them building up. We could get a good fall flow too, for wintering stores. Last option, you can combine them late in the summer if needed. No sense getting rid of a queen if you end up having them.
    I have used 50 lbs of it so far with the small splits but you are correct, it is a neat gift I got. I see you are paying attention.

    Keeping as many queens as I can sounds good enough to me. Fingers crossed.
    Thanks for your help
    gww

    Ps I thought my bees did ok last fall though I don't have a referance point of old experiance. I did see them working pumkin and zucinie in the garden and my field is full of queen anns lace insted of goldenrod. I saw the bees working that pretty late.
    Last edited by gww; 05-10-2017 at 04:00 PM.
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  4. #43
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    GWW
    You were correct at the bee club meeting.
    Shaking bees off in front of a hive, the older bees fly back home and the youngest bees that have never flown will crawl into the hive you shook in front of. It's a good way to get youngest bees into a hive that needs them. Another trick is to shake them off on top of the lid, the older ones fly home, the younger ones crawl down and in. Hives on stands, lean a board up to the entrance and shake off at the base of the board. Once again, the youngest crawl in the older flies back home.

    Sometimes a queen cell is made but not cared for and it is no good but they don't tear it down until they have a laying queen and some population going on. Sometimes a queen lays just enough for them to get a queen cell going and then she fails and they get rid of her, waiting on the new cell to get them going again. That's all I can think of for now.

    Queens...
    Egg becomes larva after the end of the third day.
    Cell capped in five to six more days, or 8 days after egg lay.
    Cell emerges 8 days after capping, or sixteen days from egg lay.
    Temperature variances can cause emergence to vary by 1 day either direction.

  5. #44
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Ray
    I say the meeting thing was either that my mentor knows how new and in some ways dumb I am and also maby affects his status or maby not. Either way, since he is the dedicated one, I don't plan on hurting him in any way cause I do use him a little. I also think he knows bees but has kept them for 20 years in one way and things like flyback splits and teronov and like things seem to be a waste of time in his mind cause he has his way. I know every one can not know everything and I really am pretty careful (though not perfect and might be a little over bearing cause if you see some one that seems to need help, you want to help.

    I always go to bushe's web site for the chart on bee math when my memory lacks a bit, I do think that I should be in the window and stuff should be happening already but also don't know the effects that wether and such have on bee math as far as flying and stuff. I just took it for granted that we had a couple days of 70+ degrees and there was no excuse now for the queens to be laying. I see the seven to 14 day mating thing and take it for granted that laying should occur. I don't know if you have ever mushroom hunted but my experiance is that I really don't see them very well untill I find a few and then they stand out better. Then my eyes get aclimated to seeing them in the proper setting. This for me has to repeat its self every year. That is what I find in the hive. I can look at all the pictures and vidios but it does not look the same when searching comb. I could be missing quite a bit even though trying.

    I am not going to worry about the queen cell. I almost destroyed it just to see but then thought, maby it really is a second chance.

    I do see how a guy can get worried when those perfect number of days have gone by and then you get in a hive and don't see what you are thinking should be there. I also think it is its very worst when using queen cells because the brood has all hatched by the time a queen is mated and it is hard to tell if it has not happened yet or they really are queenless. The only thing that gives me any comfort is that the bees seem to be foraging normaly when watching the entrance of the hive. There was a guy at the meeting who said he was only getting 25% of his vergins mated however he had brought some two frame nucs in to show how he was going to fix the problim and start selling queens and so I sorta take it with a grain of salt as being part of a sales pitch but am waiting on queen mating and so it plays on you mind. Another girl had two hives she was sure were queenless.

    I don't really mind if one goes bad and I have to combine but I would hate to have problims with 5 cause I don't have the resources to handle it well. I do think it is really probly going to work out but will feel better when I know it has.

    I figured the nurse bees could beg their way in but them guys were pushing that if they were not bearing gifts the hive would stop them. I don't worry too much if anyone listens to me cause I only try and help and if I am ever wrong and they don't listen they won't be hurt and if I am right at least I tried. I really don't want to be wrong though and hurt some one.

    I like you don't have a set number of reaching a bunch of hives but don't want to be a total failure in the things I do either, that is mostly for my pride more then my need.
    Thank you for taking the time and effort to clarify a bit for me. I would be lost with out you and danial calming my nerves a bit once in a while.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  6. #45
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    My queen matings have been dismal this spring so far, not a very good success rate at all. I'm blaming in on the weather myself. which has been unusually wet, then some wind, then too hot, now cooling again, has not been good queen mating weather at all here.

    You are seeing a little of the politics and money that seems to be in bee clubs, that I've noticed too. I did not say about the shaking of bees for you to go argue with anyone, but only to give you yourself peace of mind that you were not incorrect on that point.

    Keep up what you are doing, that's how we learn about bees. Give them time enough to perform. It takes 14-21 days After emerging to see eggs laid from a virgin queen that has mated. So from the time you make a split, to the time of eggs, is about 28 days.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Ray

    Keep up what you are doing, that's how we learn about bees. Give them time enough to perform. It takes 14-21 days After emerging to see eggs laid from a virgin queen that has mated. So from the time you make a split, to the time of eggs, is about 28 days.
    And then panic.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  8. #47
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    gww, I have already written it too often on other threads, but I have seen it on BS a lot, which is, the queen generally starts to lay right after the new beekeeper starts to panic. Sometimes a keeper will panic and do some manipulating thing and maybe ruin the whole process because it just wasn't quite time yet. Patience is important with bees.

    I am glad Ray Clarified the queen cell question. Sounds reasonable.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Danial and ray
    Well I finaly got a swarm in one of my traps and I don't think it is much but will know tomorrow when I switch it to a medium hive body. One more possible queen to save the day if things go south.

    I spend a lot of time watching scouts when I see them, I can sit on a bucket for hours. I know I don't need to but find it interesting right now while it is new.

    I am going to make a couple of post and then go out and try to cob together a new trap to replace the one I remove tonight.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  10. #49
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    I hope to have time someday to sit on a bucket for hours. I'd rather have a chair so I can lean back though. Congrats on the catch. I have 4 traps out right now, waiting for new bees.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Danial
    I love retirement. I am wondering if there is more then three hundred bee in this swarm and also if they are going to live the night. I have a feed sack as an inner cover on the trap to keep them from building comb on the lid and when I opened it a little, there were two million ants. I lifted the feed sack and between the ants I saw one or two bees look up through the frames. I don't think it is much but will switch them out tomorrow and if nothing else, maby it will have a queen. Even being small, it will be like opening a xmas package. Good luck on your trapping
    gww
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  12. #51
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    I caught a swarm last year that probably covered 2 4x6 areas of comb and one more frame with half that they had built after I looked at them a week later. I was wondering if it came from a hive of mine that was in the middle of a supersedure. That would be a very small swarm if you have a queen in there. That was last May, and they are going strong right now building up. I didn't really feed them last year and they built up very slow at first, but steady when they had a flow coming in. It was a bad flow year too, barely a fall flow too. They filled 1 1/2 8 frame mediums last year is all and they overwintered.

    I am sure if I ever can, I will enjoy retirement a lot too. I have lots to do then.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Danial
    I don't know how I missed your last post but I did. I had one small one last year and added a bigger one with it a month later and it only built up thirteen medium frames. I did slam some quick feed in october and put a sugar block on it and it was busting at the seems the first time I checked in march. It was the only one that had queen cups with no eggs durring my first inspection. It is now my only hive that has not swarmed and is working on supers. My only real chance at honey. I have about a gal and a half worth almost capped in this hive.

    My other swarm built up probly 17 frames and it was busting at the seams also. I do think not being able to adress swarming this year had some to do with so much stores in the hives in spring. They were built up to bigger then their origional population before I could even look at them due to the wether.

    I am feeding a bit this year to see if I can see a differrance in build up and because of the free sugar.

    I got impatiant and looked in the big hive part of the walk away split. I was down to the last three frames out of the 20 I looked at when I spotted the queen. This hive surprizes me a little. I had slamed 3 gals of 2 to 1 on it close to when I made the split cause it seemed to be getting lighter and I did not leave any foragers in the hive and it had a lot of brood to hatch. The part that surprizes me is that it is really active, It is packed plumb full of bees but has not stored much since the nurse bees and some of the hatched brood has turned to foragers. Still no egg laying but the queen is new and fat and has almost three meduims of empty comb to lay in. I did have a question. I found the queen in the second medium from the bottom. The bottom medium is mostly empty comb except for some pollen. Should I leave it where it is or should I reverse the two bottom boxes? There is still no sign of laying but I am no longer worried after seeing the queen. If those queens did not have a big orange colored tail, I would not see them.

    This tells me when I look again at the old bee split that that queen will have to bee seen also cause even though tomorrow will be 30 days from capped queen cell, I am sure I will not see laying yet, the wether must have played a big part. Sure have my fingers crossed on that split but will wait 5-7 more days if I don't spot her tomorrow.

    So, I now have two queens spotted out of six. I may go in the hive that swarmed twice tomorrow also to check on stores and comb drawing. It had an empty super on it that the bees had started on and then swarmed twice anyway. It is hard to inspect because it has the teronov split on top of it. It should gain some foragers tomorrow while I have the teronove set off to the side. These queens should by all rights be a week behind in development from when they were made but the swarms sorta tell me that they come out about even.

    Anyway, my one question is wether to leave the hive that I found the queen in the second medium the way it is or move the second medium to the bottom?
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  14. #53
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Leave it the way it is until you see sealed brood emerging which will be in about three weeks. Don't disturb the way they are until she has laid a full round of brood that is emerging so that you know she is well established. That empty on the bottom is not hurting a thing at the moment.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Ray
    That sounds great to me. If you remember the imposible queen cell I found, I would say you had what happened correct. I took it off the frame and broke it open and it had a little runny liquid in it but over all was empty. It was very rubbery and pretty hard to break into. It sure was a nice sized good looking cell.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  16. #55
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    gww, I would do what Ray said too. It's a good plan.

    I didn't keep track of how many swarms and splits you ended up with. You're waiting for 6 queens? I hope you get 100% on mating. I would leave them be till you have a minimum of 2 weeks after emergence, maybe more. If you open them at 2 weeks and find no queen or eggs, you won't do anything about it anyway, except worry about it. It's good to let them go. Ok, I have a virgin queen in the swarmed colony from the supersedure Friday, and I will try real hard to stay out of mine too, for 2 weeks +. It's not always easy to do. I will check the swarm after a week to confirm it's got the laying queen in it, but no farther than seeing eggs.

    About making honey, I have a friend who had a hive swarm about the 3rd week of May, then after swarm, he caught both swarms, and from the three hives he harvested 60 pounds of honey anyway. He didn't feed them at all after that and they are still alive this spring, so he didn't rob them too much. There's hope with a good flow.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Danial
    My hives should be about 3 weeks from emergence on the ones I am checking. The ones that just swarmed 4 days ago should have emerged earlier but I am guessing the bees tied them up during the wether so they could swarm rather then let the virgins kill each other. I only have one more queen that is 30 days from capped queen cell. After that, I only have the swarms which is three more proby two weeks from now. The hives all seem to be foraging normaly and so I should not worry too much. I am sitting at eight and gave one away.

    I can't seem to stay out of the hive but only part of it is worry over queen issues. Since I don't know what I am doing and even when doing it, I only remember half of what I see when I get in the hives. I have to be spicifically looking for something or when I think back on what I saw and try and remember other things, I can't.
    I partly got in the hive today a day earlier then planned because I was trying to remember how its stores looked. My issue is that I don't know cause and effect yet. So I get in and see the stores don't really reflect the foraging action I see at the entrance of the hive. So what I think I learned by getting in besides finding I had a queen is how much food it takes when you leave a hive with only nurse bees and a lot of unhatched brood comb. If I learned nothing else, I learned that it is a danged good thing that I gave them the three gal of sugar water in the beginning. Now I should have been able to have come up with that answer 4 days ago when I looked but I am not practiced at connecting the dots yet.

    Tomorrow, I will look at the split of just old bees that I gave no brood or comb to except a frame of honey (give or take) and a medium frame of brood with a queen cell on it. My issue with them besides finding a queen is that 4 days ago they had 70/80 percent of the medium hive body drawn out and filled. Even looking, my decission is,
    1. The bees are old and even if they have filled the medium, they should start dieing and brood is forty days away before new foragers arive.
    2. They may be full enough of honey that the new queen only has a small area to lay. do I need to extract a frame and make room?
    3. Even if the comb is pretty full of honey, the brood is going to take a lot and the bees may start dieing and not be bringing in enough and might need the honey there to make brood.
    4. If they now have it drawn out and filled, do I add a super even kinowing the bees there now are old.
    I am going to look and see what is happening but don't really know the cause and affect of the hive make up and so don't really know how to handle it. I would love suggestions on this.

    I don't have base lines to work from and so the queen is kinda a biggie and a good excuse to look but there are a few more reasons like trying to learn what bees do so when it happens in the future, I won't really need to look cause I will know (if I can remember any of it).

    I am still first year but am looking forward to the day when some of this comes a bit more natural.

    There is one more kinda funny or odd thing. I really am not as worried about the swarms as much because I had good luck in the past but it seems differrent on the minipulations that I made and were not the bees ideal. It is funny how you can not feel as bad for the bees if they do it to themselves but if you are the one that does it to them, you want it to work out. Wierd huh?

    The flow? It seems early enough to have hope but I bet it depends on the rain being space correctly. I still have some hope and the hive that is giving extra now should give more and the one with all the bees and empty comb will be interesting to learn how the brood raising will affect what is possible.
    Thanks for the advice.
    gww
    zone 5b

  18. #57
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Your thinking is about right. If you feel she needs more room, you can swap out full frames for empties with one of your other hives, instead of adding a box of foundation. A box of foundation is not room, it's work needing to be done.

    You can also set a frame or two out in the open for the bees to rob out for you, then put back in the hive once it's empty.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Ray
    See how simple that was, with two or three sentences from you, I have a decent plan of attack. I some times think myself in circles and it is nice to have some body simplify for me.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  20. #59
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Update:

    I have to tell on my self so you guys know who you are dealing with when trying to advise me.

    The hive that is all foragers that I looked at 5 days ago and could see nothing now has capped brood. Yes I was trying 5 days ago.

    I think I also figured out why the hive that had the teronove split on top of it swarmed twice. The super I put on it only had one little tear drop of comb in it. I forgot to pull comb up or when I did it there was uncapped honey and I didn't want them to draw it fat or I just got into a hurry. I really can not remember what I was thinking. I believe I could have saved them from swarming if I had baited the super better. There is really no excuse.

    This is the hive that I shook all the young bees from when doing the teronove split. I put this box in the old place to catch the foragers that flew back and then when I moved the old hives brood back. I apparrently set this off and then set it on top of the brood and did not bait it. If I had moved the split on the double screen board sitting on top before the hive swarmed. I may have adverted this cause I would have seen what I did.

    I did not look in the bottom box to see what the be density was and guess that it is pretty light but the middle box under the super still has a lot of bees even after swarming twice. I left the super on and pulled up two frames and put them in the 4 and 6 spot and called it a day. This may be too much room for the amount of bees but I sorta figure it will gain some foragers when I move the teronov split off of it in a couple of weeks to a month or so.

    I have one chance at honey if I go by comb and stores and that is with the hive that did not swarm. The top medium super is about 70% drawn out and full and 50+ percent capped. The super below it is probly 40/50 percent drawn and full and the bees are drawing on it hard. If the honey was capped enough, I would try to extract those frames and put them back. I am a little afraid that hive is going to run out of room and want to swarm before that happens cause it is active as heck and noticably so. I did shake the capped frames hard and nothing was coming out and I don't know what might be a time line for them to get it where it can be extracted and I don't know if I should add another super or not. My plan is to check in 5 or so days and see how much they got done but even that is worry some now that they are working the super below so hard.

    Cheers
    gww
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    Default Re: bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

    Small little update.
    I am pretty sure the warre hive that I put one of the swarms from my hive in is either robbed out and I think queenless. (due to me using the leaky hive top feeder twice). I look in it and it has the prettiest little pure white comb in it. There are about five starts about as big as my hand with my fingers all together and strait as an arrow. There are only enough bees to cover those comb but not very heavy coverage. I have never quit feeding it about a pint a day or a little less and the comb has little spots of capped sugar water but over all look pretty empty since I am feeding. I don't get the robbing alowing any sugar water staying in the comb but also this hive was the only one that was not bringing pollen in today. I put another jar on it anyway but don't think it is going anywhere. I can't believe how many bees I killed when hiveing the swarm in it as you can see along the box edge a bunch of smashed bees. I bet one was the queen.

    I moved the teronov split today. All the bees in it that were foraging are gethering at the top of the hive where the double screen door was. I figure they will be accepted pretty well where ever they end up cause they are just loaded with pollen. I moved this a bit early and it will probly be somewhere about the tenth of june before the split part that I moved will have new foragers. It only has about five comb built out but several are just packed and capped honey and so I am taking a chance it will be fine long enough for them to try and recover.

    As a funny side note to the moved hive above. I put it at the end of my other hives and all the bees from the hive that was the end one before I put this here are flying to the new hive and getting right to the entrance and then flying to the hive they are supposed to go to. It shows that there old way of finding their hive was just to go to the last one. I just found it interesting that thier oreintation was based on such a lose criteria.

    My other swarms are so slow and should be combined but I am just feeding them and letting what happens happen. None of them have more then two combs but they are bringing pollen in and we will see if they ever get to critical mass.

    I did not look at my honey producer and the one hive that is the old hive on the end is filling the comb that used to have brood and has lots of bees but is not yet drawing a lot of comb but there is still hope for it cause it is crowded and has a new queen. I have four mediums on it but two are only about 50% drawn out due to stealing a frame and pulling a few up into the supers for bait and ladder frames. I hope they fill it in the next month and think it is possible due to bee density.

    That is all I got. As always, point out any flaws in bee logic that you notice in me.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

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