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bone head split so far, somebody save the day.

102K views 871 replies 28 participants last post by  AR1 
#1 ·
Ok, I caught a swarm yesterday. Found queen cells in my biggest hive. Today, moved hive ten plus feet sideways and looked for the queen. I set a box with two honey frames in the old hive location to collect the foragers. I looked through every frame looking for the queen but did not find her. I have never found a queen on my own and so maby she is still there and maby not. I had seen some uncapped swarm cells yesterday but today I also found some capped ones.

Since I could not find the queen, I took one partial frame of brood that had a capped queen cell and two not quite capped ones on it and put that in the old location where the two combs of honey are. The rest of the hive is full of foundationless frames.

The old moved hive has lots of capped brood honey and pollen. It has queen cells and maby a queen and maby not a queen.

I was looking for open brood and had thought I saw some eggs but then I seen the same later and believe it was just the way the sun was shining on the wet cells. I did not see any larva but I took a brood frame out for the swarm yesterday and did not see but maby three larva in the three or four frames I looked at. I saw lots of giant drones while looking for the queen and so if she was thinned down I might not have seen her anyway.

I guess my question is, what have I done and what will probly happen?

To me the hive still seems crowded and the swarm was big and I just don't see how that hive could have had that many bees in it. It was only a three medium hive.

I didn't want after swarms and so I did what I did by splitting bees by age.

I was hoping to give a freind some of the queen cells when they got capped.

If the queen is still with the hive, I am assuming that the bees in the young bee hive will start tearing down queen cell. Is this correct? If it is correct I will be wishing I had just did a teranov split and put a cell in each hive.

The foragers with no comb but two full honey combs, very little brood, queen cells and the rest foundationless frames. What is going to happen and will it work or need more work to make it work?

I don't mind you guys calling me stupid. I thought I was going to find a queen today.

Any advice?
Thanks
gww
 
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#445 · (Edited)
Ok, update. I am now down to 9 hives as I had one die. I got busy lately and have not had time to try and be a better bee keeper. Due to the time I have let pass, an autopsy would do no good as the hive has been robbed clean. I have at least one more that will die over winter if I don't add food.

I am not sure of how the rest are cause I only opened three hives not counting the dead one and they had enough and so I am taking it on faith that the rest are ok.

I am not willing to attribute the dead hive to mites or disease (though not impossible). The reason I say this is because this is a hive that I pulled a bunch of brood frames from and gave to somebody that had accidentally bought an extra queen that he had no where to put. My belief is that he got the queen from my hive with that brood or the hive had already swarmed though I think it was too late due to it being in july. We did see charged queen cells being made when he took the brood cause I had to call him and tell him to make sure and destroy all of them before placing his queen if he wanted the queen to live. I am pretty sure we left one of two cells in the hive. I think we killed the queen or lost it and the new one did not get mated. I should have paid more attention. I am sometimes over confident. The guy gave me 40 bucks for the bees and it should have worked but now was an expensive endeavor. My fault though and a good learning experience.

The hive that needs feed is the other hive that we took a medium of bees from including the queen and most of the brood. I had split the two boxes left by the box with out looking to see if there was a queen cell in both boxes due to how hot those bees were the day I did the split. When I looked at them later and seen one queen, I just combined them back cause I did not see the other queen. It is a hive now with one box of bees and brood and one box of basically empty comb. I am pretty sure it is plenty healthy enough to make it through winter bee wise but not good enough to gather enough stores before frost. I really don't like late splits that happen about harvest time.

So now over 4 summers, I have lost 2 hives and have nine left. This is going to be the first year that I am not going to prop any of them up by giving them a couple gal of 2 to 1 in oct (except maybe the small one just to show I am not crazy). Hope I don't start any robbing on the small one but it does seem like a pretty good fall flow is on right this minute with me seeing bees on the small amount of golden rod and the tons or frost astors that is out there. If I hurry, I will be ok. The two hives I opened seemed to have the third box full of honey and so if they don't swarm, they should be good and the others should be close with out having to look at them. I say this cause one hive has filled that top box since I took the honey in sept which was the last I had looked in them.
They are bringing in pollen and so probably going to have a healthy round of brood for winter bees.

I will of course know more come spring.

My very best producer was my oldest hive that I never split or did anything else to but that might have superceeded sometime though I never noticed it. I got about 50 lbs excess off of that hive. However, I only got about 130 lbs over all from all ten hives with nothing coming from a few.

I usually am done about now and will not weigh or open the hives again till the first 70 degree day of spring whenever that is, weather in feb or april.

I do enjoy looking at the entrances on any day warm enough for the bees to fly though.
b-th b-th b-thats all folks.
Cheers
gww

Ps the combs in the dead out still look good and I am going to leave them as it should frost by oct 20th or so. I hope they survive that with out wax moth and believe they will. I could move them to a freezer with my other four that I have store but want to see if they survive in good shape. If they do, next year will be the first year that I have a chance to see what my bees might produce if given draw supers. I am foundationless and have never had enough comb to give them and they have had to make the comb for the excess honey that I take. If I had to have a dead out, this is the one positive.
 
#446 ·
The guy gave me 40 bucks for the bees and it should have worked but now was an expensive endeavor. My fault though and a good learning experience.

...

This is going to be the first year that I am not going to prop any of them up by giving them a couple gal of 2 to 1 in oct (except maybe the small one just to show I am not crazy).

...

If they do, next year will be the first year that I have a chance to see what my bees might produce if given draw supers. I am foundationless and have never had enough comb to give them and they have had to make the comb for the excess honey that I take. If I had to have a dead out, this is the one positive.
GWW:

As always, I enjoy reading your posts- I read this one last night and then came back today and read it again more carefully to make sure I understood everything.

In my very limited beekeeping experience, I have found that every manipulation is an adventure, and often fraught with risk- It seems I'm the guy that always shakes the queen out of the colony when looking to add resources to other colonies, so you might very well be right concerning your dead-out.

Either way, as you mention the drawn comb will no doubt come in real handy with your other colonies provided you don't have a swarm move in before you put those combs away ;).

I am looking forward to hearing how your plan to offer no welfare to your colonies turns out. When I go through all my colonies in the next couple of weeks I am leaning toward the same approach provided it looks like they have sufficient stores, based in part on your experiences.

Keep up the good work, and best of success with your support of the struggling colony.

Have a great weekend.

Russ
 
#447 ·
russ
I am looking forward to hearing how your plan to offer no welfare to your colonies turns out. When I go through all my colonies in the next couple of weeks I am leaning toward the same approach provided it looks like they have sufficient stores, based in part on your experiences.
Just keep in mind, my only experience so far is adding at least 2 gal fast in the beginning of oct and some times a few with sugar blocks to boot.:)

I have no experience of doing nothing but will by spring time.

I saw your goerge E. post on taking care of comb on your thread and was thinking you might have posted it based on my leaving the comb out.:)

Time will tell how all goes but I feel pretty confident and the only thing left is to see if I should have felt that way.

I will keep learning through your thread even if I don't comment every day. It is still a highlight of my day that I try and keep up on.
Cheers
gww
 
#448 ·
You're a good guy, GWW. Keep up the good work- I've learned a whole lot from you too...

Any references to George Imirie and protecting drawn comb at a time you are talking about leaving out are strictly coincidental 😉.

Best of success as you close out the season.

Russ
 
#449 ·
In back reading this thread...
You have mentioned, back in May, that sometimes the brood looks bad and spotty, and then it clears up. Several things can cause this, but what I have surmised at times in my own hives, is that when it's colder in the late winter/early spring, the brood can be quite spotty and then it clears up as the weather warms... the reason may be that when it's colder, they need more open cells in the brood area so that "heater bees" can enter the cells and heat the comb and brood. As the weather warms, the need for heating comb and brood reduces so the brood is not as spotty then.

Heater bees are the bees that go into cells, disconnect their wing muscles and then exercise those muscles to create heat. That warms the comb and brood around them. I think this explanation has answered what I see, at least some of the time. Maybe it is the answer to some of the times when you see the same thing.
 
#450 ·
Ray
Thanks for the tip. Hope you are doing well. I would come and talk at the chat room but have been really busy trying to get moms plumbing in her 100 year old house running as strong as it should run and keeping the old ford tractor working.

Plus I have had some doctors appointments and am not used to the time those things take as I have not had that hassle for most of my life.

I am really glad to hear from you in this thread cause I would have never survived my first few years with out yours and Daniels calming influence as issues came up. You showing up here gives me a chance to point that out again to everyone that might read this.
Cheers
gww
 
#452 ·
Russ
I only put two gal on the small hive that I took a split from in july (the one that did not die). The others are on their own and I have my fingers crossed. It got cold early this year. I saw two hives doing orientation flights the other days and so know at least a few have some young bees and as long as the food holds, I am feeling fine.
I had to buy a new computer and so have not been able to keep up for a few days and deer season starts Saturday and so I am moving on from bees for a short period.:)
Cheers
gww

Ps I tried to take pictures of my feeding method but could not get the pictures to transfer to the computer. When I get the gumption, I am going to see if the blue tooth works with this new computer as I did not have that option with the old one.
 
#454 ·
I only put two gal on the small hive that I took a split from in july (the one that did not die). The others are on their own and I have my fingers crossed. It got cold early this year. I saw two hives doing orientation flights the other days and so know at least a few have some young bees and as long as the food holds, I am feeling fine.
I'm looking forward to watching how things play out for you, GWW. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on it working out great for you.

Best of luck to you in the tree stand- thankfully it looks like it is going to be warmer next week than this week.

Russ
 
#460 ·
I have made these twice and used this recipe sort of.
https://www.seasonsandsuppers.ca/apple-fritters-yeast-donuts/
The first time I had no lard and so used butter. I did use the cake flour.

The second batch that I like better. I had some milk that was three days past the date but still drinkable and not turned. So I used milk instead of water and did use lard and used all purpose flour. I liked the texture of the all purpose flour best due to it being a little chewier. I triple the recipe and so get about 24 to 26 of the type that are in my picture.

Making cinnamon rolls or bubble bread is easier to make but some times fried just taste good.
I figured these frozen would make a handy treat for deer season but have had most of them already ate and only have about ten left and they were only made like on tuesday. I do know that they do taste great even after being frozen though. These two times were the first two times I have ever made apple fritters cause I am cheap and unlike greg, still have never gotten an apple off of my five trees. I have made quite a few peach pies though.
Cheers and good eating.
gww
 
#461 ·
The second batch that I like better. I had some milk that was three days past the date but still drinkable and not turned. So I used milk instead of water and did use lard and used all purpose flour. I liked the texture of the all purpose flour best due to it being a little chewier. I triple the recipe and so get about 24 to 26 of the type that are in my picture.
Anything that has milk, eggs and fruit in it and is fried in lard is called good eating in my book.

I look forward to giving this recipe a try.

Russ
 
#462 ·
Ok
The few post back where I had a dead out and was going to brave it and see if the comb might survive till spring in place turned out to be a mistake. The wax moth have destroyed the three mediums and so 30 drawn frames down. So now I only have 4 drawn out supers for spring. I knew the risk but wanted to see in person. Next year such things will spend a bit of time in the freezer. Bit of a waste egh.

Cheers
gww
 

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#463 · (Edited)
...I had a dead out and was going to brave it and see if the comb might survive till spring in place turned out to be a mistake.
Wow, GWW. They completely eviscerated that comb- sorry about this. I unfortunately had to learn this lesson the hard way this year too- decided that the swarm traps have to come in before July 4th for sure and maybe late May around here.

Otherwise, how are your bees faring? Lots of pollen coming in with this unseasonably warm weather?
 
#465 ·
Russ
No pollen since our first frost that I have noticed but I also have not been watching the hives hardly at all. It was almost 70 degrees today and so I couldn't resist. The bees were not really flying today but all had bees at the entrance and so I figure I still have 9 hives for now.

I leave my traps out all year and no longer worry about comb in them. Last year I did not even empty them of mice and wasp and such. I just threw a q-tip with lemon grass oil in every so often. I still caught one and the most I have ever caught is three in one year and so until I get desperate for more bees, I will only do it half way.

I hope your holidays are going well for you.
Cheers
gww
 
#472 ·
...so I figure I still have 9 hives for now.
Thanks for the update, GWW. Sounds like your overwintering efforts are shaping-up well (as usual).

Here, 11 of 12 colonies have recently begun bringing in a very light, almost white pollen in pretty healthy quantities- hoping they don't get fooled into brooding up too much, too early... can't imagine what is producing pollen around here already.

We had a great Christmas celebration and I sincerely hope you and your family did as well.

Have a great evening.

Russ
 
#470 ·
Debbee
Thanks for the sad face. I thought I would try it cause it was so close to the frost date and I had had single combs in empty boxes never touched for years. This comb all packed together must have been much more interesting to the bugs. It is a self imposed error that I sorta knew was going to end up this way but I just wanted to know for sure. Now I know for sure.:)
Hope your holidays are going well.
gww
 
#473 ·
Russ
Thanks for the update, GWW. Sounds like your overwintering efforts are shaping-up well (as usual).
Long as I don't mess around and starve them early spring. Very first year of not feeding and this is another thing I am just wanting to know and as you can see, I am not above being mistake prone while just wanting to see things.

Cheers
gww
 
#475 ·
Glenn, I hate wax moths too. Trying something new this year also. Most of the comb I brought indoors to the bee room was destroyed, even after spraying it with Bt.k. Had a lot of moths flying around the house for a while. The remaining supers were left on the hives for the bees to patrol. Feeders were placed above them so there would be constant traffic on warm days. Will see how they fared come springtime. In the meanwhile, I have about 50 medium frames to clean and rewax.
 
#476 ·
jw
squarepeg leaves his supers on the hives for the bees to care for and I think it works well for him. I looked today and the four that I have in the freezer still look fine. I only kept the freezer on for a few days. I had a big commercial freezer go bad and I have taken all the selves out of it. I have it outside in the weather and I am hoping to sorta use it as a sealed shed. Maybe freeze in the house and then move out there and see how it goes. I am not too worried about mold even if it happens but so far see none when I have opened it over the last few months. Wish it would not have went bad, could have made some money back on it but when getting lemons, make lemonade.
Good luck with you.
gww
 
#477 ·
This year, I put my combs in the shed, and left a 15W LED bulb on from August to October. I had no moth problems.

Earlier, I had left a few combs with some bee bread in them loose on the shelf, and the wax moths made a mess of them. After cleaning up and turning on the light, I left a few combs on the same shelf. The light appears to have kept the moths away, as I didn't get any more.

Disclaimer - Wax moths are a relatively minor problem this far north, as the winter kills them off pretty effectively.
 
#478 ·
While I had wax moths in the house, I did notice that they exhibited typical moth attraction to light sources, mirrors, windows, ceiling fans, etc. I think a bug zapper in the bee room would be a good addition. Should at least keep them from proliferating and slow down the reproductive process. Not sure I want two empty supers on every hive going into winter. Only have one on several hives right now. I am also considering placing a bug zapper in the apiary since I have power out there. A timer could make it only come on at night when the bees are not flying. No idea if bees would be attracted to one if were on during the day and I do not want to find out by experimenting with my bees.
 
#479 ·
novice
You should put your location on you post and we would know your coldness. This is a suggestion and not a criticism. Thanks for the comments. I have seen guys that make open racks to store their comb on so they are in open air with good light. If I would have set the supers on their side and left both ends open and even out in the weather, I probably would not have had issues except for maybe wood rot. I keep all my unused hive outside now and so don't worry too mush about rot (might come back and bite me later though).

I have a general lazy streak and have never done any of this stuff before and so I always do the easiest thing I can think of until it bites me and I have to do more. The 15 watt light is a great ideal. I don't have good electric where I have good storage room at this point in time but do like your ideal and also the result of your shelf experiment. Thank you for mentioning it.

I thought I would be ok due to being so close to frost date but apparently it did not get cold enough inside the hive where the moth nest actually was or at least not in time. I did learn one thing though. It did not take the moth too long to compleetly fill the hive cause it was not bad when I first noticed the dead out and we were really close to our first frost which came early. They must move pretty fast or I did not look very good.
Cheers
gww
 
#481 ·
novice
If I would have set the supers on their side and left both ends open and even out in the weather, I probably would not have had issues except for maybe wood rot. I keep all my unused hive outside now and so don't worry too mush about rot (might come back and bite me later though).
gww
I stack them all in the garage. I hate the thought of my home-made boxes getting rot, so pretty much everything gets a coat of paint every year. I value the wood itself, since most of it came out of my dad's barn. I helped him build the livestock pens when I was a kid, and now am reusing the same wood for my bees 50 years later. Some of the wood was from his uncle, so maybe 80 years old.

I buy the returned paint at Farm & Fleet or Ace for <$10/gallon. Sometimes odd colors. Last year line marker paint, for painting stripes on parking lots was really cheap. So I have some very vivid yellow, red and blue boxes now. Interested to see how well it holds up in the weather.

Boxes full of comb go outside when the temps are below freezing, which seems to kill moths.
 
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