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  1. #81
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    mls
    I know with that post you were doing you best to help me figure it out and I thank you for that.

    I will tell you about me. I am not a purist on anything yet. I actually have read most of that stuff and also any thing else somebody turns me on to. I just love when people post good links. I am not a follower of micheal bush but I do praise him for putting his stuff out there for free cause I don't buy much and have found that I can understand his writing style better them most. His site has probly helped me more on just understanding general handling issues. I don't buy into the philosiphy part cause I am not smart enough yet. I don't discount it either.

    I watch all micheal palmer vidios and then bug him on things I don't understand every time I get a chance. I don't buy into his full phylosophy but also don't discount it and am very thankful he is there.

    My problim as you are finding out is that I read everything with the intent of finding flaws. I don't do this out of hate but more because that is how my brain works in placing value to things. My learned way of learning.

    I have solid bottom boards because that was what the free plan on bee souce had and I thought I could build it. I get into my hive pretty regular but I hardly ever dig to deep but do my best looking for as deep as I do go and watch the entrance almost daily.

    I will not take mite counts by killing a couple hundred bees every so often even though I know in the big picture that is not much of a loss to a hive. But I might someday just like I have butchered chickens.

    I will look enough to hopefully see changes as they happen but this year am new enough to not know what I am seeing.

    Why would I try this, cause I have seen some one local and so figure even knowing the risk, have a little faith and see what happens.

    Why else do I do this? Last year I caught 3 swarms. I give them nothing. I did know the risk while doing this and was willing to take it. I wanted to see what normal no help looks like and also to maby learn my areas flows a little. This year if I catch a swarm, I will feed untill they have thier broodnest comb built and see what the differrences are.

    What is the point to saying the above. The point is that everyone has thier own prossess for learning and mine is pretty slow but I am a very lucky person and some how seem to do just enough to get er done. I do know the risk though.

    On the ipm, I have seen randys view but also pick it apart for inconsistancys. Do I do this because I think I know more about bees than randy, NOT ON YOU LIFE do I think that. But I do think that even though his arguements are based on study, they are based on his study. Randy always has a base line hive to show the differrences of what he is expermenting on that has nothing done to it. A bunch of them died due to mites because he built the mites up so he could experment on them.

    So I love the advice but sometime the risk has to be taken to prove out the advice.

    Other people take these risk to experment also. A back yard bee keeper like me that is not relieing on bees for income can afford to try and reinvent the wheel if that is how his learing works.

    I don't buy that it is ok when randy does it but not others though randy's skills do justify what he does.

    I did not put that last part about randy up to go against your view on mite bombs but more to show my type of thought prossess while learning things.

    I sound tough and like I don't care if my bees die and I am going to try it no matter what. The truth is that I might get scared and start treating tomorrow. I won't feel to bad either way I go cause I consider it the cost of learning if you are as dumb as me.

    I see the levels of infection that they say treat and then requeen and then try again. That way you don't lose your work fource and it doesn't cost so much to work toward treatment free.

    However, I also saw a post not to long ago of two differrent bee keepers saying thier hives where at 15% going into winter and came out strong in spring.

    15% is higher then randys threshold and if it is 15% who is to say 17% wont work some of the time?

    I am not saying I will be the one that onpurpose decides to find out with my bees but somebody who has had success with lower counts wil and may keep doing it untill they are successful. A few failure may not stop them.

    I wan't to know all about all of this but do have on my mind what I have seen locally and so have to make the parts of all of it untill it fits my stuff.

    You might find that come fall, I have posted all my bees died or I didn't get any honey for my first overwintered hives. If That happens, I don't even mind if you say I told you so. I really don't (gonna hurt if I lose all my bees though).

    I also don't discount that a back yard bee keeper can help the situation of a possible mite bomb but also believe that if he doesn't it would be no differrent then if he had not caught the swarm and it had did what it did with out him.

    So he may have an opertunity to help with his bees but he will have no opertunity of outside influinces against his bees and if he experments or goes hard bond based on the possible reconized bennifits, he will be of very little impact.

    I want to know all the things you have to tell me and hopefully as my brain prossesses it, some portion of what you have given me will make me a better bee keeper in a couple of years. One thing about it. If you know it and I don't, then there is no hope of it helping me.
    Thank you for the post.
    gww
    Last edited by gww; 04-04-2017 at 10:31 PM.
    zone 5b

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  3. #82

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    So the bigger the pop is over the wintering cluster size the more likelihood of the hive crashing. I think this is one reason summer increase nucs do well, on top of the brood break, do to being started small, they are building up to winter cluster size instead of shrinking to it, so even if both hives started with the same mite load, they end with very different ones when its time to make winter bees .
    Itīs not so easy. Some nucs develop so fast, they are like a production hive and shrink also. That was the case with mine.
    And there are some which have a high mite rate but are resistant to virus disease.

    I had one which did not shrink. It died first. Why? It was the only one in the bee yard without VSH behavior. It had no entrance defense.

    Even if you have better stock, the mites outbreed the bees sometimes in a nuc. Infestation levels could be high. Use robber traps, but this is IPM.

    If you do hard bond, or IPM or treatments, realize, there will always be a selection. Nature does this in spite of all our work. Nobody has total control. Go on with the best and develop some better stock, I believe itīs possible in a small bee yard, but it needs time and some co-workers to give queens to or receive local adapted queens. If you have losses, they can provide you with survivor stock which is tf.

  4. #83
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    SiW.....
    I believe itīs possible in a small bee yard, but it needs time and some co-workers to give queens to or receive local adapted queens.
    Plus, if you are small but live in a state like MO where there are a couple on this site that figure they are already having TF successes, it may not take much in the way of improving stock for a back yard guy. The stock may already be improved enough to get by. Only one way to find out. In ohio where the frost guy has kept threatment free since the thirties. It might be worth trying if you do not have an advertsion to taking some risk.

    It is true that those bee keepers might be that much better that what works for them may not work for you but only one way to see.

    One other point. I mentioned split last year to they guy that I bought my bees from. I mentioned it for the benifit of a mite break. His veiw that he told me was that in his experiance, the best way to survive winter is with a big, stong hive. See, he will not tell me "No don't do that or yes do that" He will just hint at what he thinks is best.

    He told me this year that he was surprised my hives where still alive and that last year he didn't think that was going to happen. The hive were lacking enough drawn comb. He said he doesn't like sugar blocks cause they draw pest. I used 16 lbs sugar blocks. I am guessing the point is that he is the greatest resource but that I do use outside imput and pick and choose what I actually do. There are lots of avenues that can help a little and also hurt a little but in the end, either you have to keep bees or you have to get a volinteer or worker to keep them for you.

    I wrote that cause, though you can not throw all bee keeping priciples out the window, you can see that success can be had in several ways. Big cluster smaller cluster and the machanics of making it work might be a little differrent.

    I do relize that people in other states or even in mine may have a differrent make up, the beekeeper may have differrent things that he sees to go by and that you only know or see what you know or see even if stuff you haven't seen is out there. You still only know what you know, or think you know.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  5. #84
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    I think you are doing great gww. An argument that the newcomers and small time beekeepers can make an excellent contribution.

  6. #85
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Iharder
    An argument that the newcomers and small time beekeepers can make an excellent contribution.
    And if that new comer is ambitious (I am not that abitious) and does have some success, he may in a couple of years become one of the big timers that everyone says is going to be the ones who save the world. I would say almost all bee keepers started some where and even the big ones were small once.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  7. #86
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    I think you are doing great gww. An argument that the newcomers and small time beekeepers can make an excellent contribution.
    absolutely, just think were we would be if we only listened to TF people who had 50+ hives
    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Itīs not so easy. Some nucs develop so fast, they are like a production hive and shrink also
    there will always be exceptions to the base line.
    I don't know your time line or set up of your nucs. In this example I am referring to summer increase nucs for over wintering, started small in mid July(otherwise they get too big, want to swarm, etc)) with a bar of brood, a bar of stores, a shake or 2 of bees and a cell. The concept is to take the min amount of bee resources and grow it so gets just big eunf to rase a good batch of winter bees and pack a way some stores
    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Even if you have better stock, the mites outbreed the bees sometimes in a nuc.
    yes, how you make your spits matters as do some things we don’t know….its not like you get the same results every time with bees

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    I will not take mite counts by killing a couple hundred bees every so often
    While not the best method, sugar rolls or stickily boards work to a degree, No need for a SBB, quoting MB again
    If you don't have a SBB then you need a sticky board. You can buy these or make one with a piece of #8 hardware cloth on a piece of sticky paper. The kind you use to line drawers will work. Put the board under it and wait 24 hours and count the mites.
    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    I also saw a post not to long ago of two differrent bee keepers saying thier hives where at 15% going into winter and came out strong in spring
    Timing matters, 15% going in to winter is very different then 15% going in to summer or fall, and what that count means is very different if there is no brood
    IE Currie & Gatien suggest for Manitoba an action threshold of 1.5% in the spring (with 3% being an impact on the crop) 4.5% early sept, and 15% October.

    Randy states
    the fact that mite-tolerant races of bees rarely allow varroa to exceed a 2% infestation
    but doesn’t give any data or study to back that up.. It goes well with MB’s health certs, but.....

    I would love it if SP and a few of the other people who are being successful at TF to post what there counts look like on hives that are thriving, VS poor shape or crashed. That might give us a better target to find the point where you can say this queen doesn’t have what it takes in TF perspective vs a honey crop perspective.
    I can't give you magic mite number if you wishing to push the bees to there almost breaking point just in case they can handle it such a fine line is going to be defined at a local level, maby people could ask there TF suppler (if they have one) what their counts look like

    There is no such thing as cooke cutter beekeeping to garentee results, I have a garage full of langs to prove that.
    Even tho I am I topbar guy(for$$ reasons, can't beat $25 a hive) I thought I would try the "dark side" this year, and starting messing around on CL to try to pick up a lang or 2 cheap to play with
    long story short I can't turn down a deal and it snowballed a bit as I picked up a bits and pices here and there
    I spent a grand total of $302 and I now have seven sets of 10f gear(2 deeps 3 meadum supers), Six 8f singles, and 6 f5 nucs, and bunch of other random items.
    It was a little hard seeing all these people who had their dreams crushed, looking at the floor as they talked about their bees, after 2-3 years of losses they just wanted the hive and the bitter memory's it holds out of their yard. That was a good chunk of the reason for starting this thread, to help people be successful
    Last edited by msl; 04-05-2017 at 01:33 PM.

  8. #87

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    msl
    maybe Erik Österlunds blog is of interest to you, he does mite counts on almost all his hives and has some experience. He is also doing IPM. Very interesting what he has to say even if he is swedish.

    http://www.elgon.es/diary/

  9. #88
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    msl
    I am a pretty cheap guy too.
    Cheers
    gww
    Ps, I am on the otherside. I have two long langs and a warre hive but am running langs. The non langs are my prettiest swarm traps.
    zone 5b

  10. #89
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    In ohio where the frost guy has kept threatment free since the thirties.
    Hey gww, I think you are referring to Frost Apiaries in Arkansas? I just got a couple of their queens to try out. They are located about 15 miles from where I live. Great people and from everything I'm hearing excellent bees.

  11. #90
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    SiW.....
    The most interesting thing I saw on your link was down in the comment section.
    The position was taken that requeening is not enough for nonresistant hives and would not work. The position was that the workers teach each other.

    I don't know what creedence to put to something like that but it does add one more IPM tactic to try in my mind.

    If you had two hives and one was doing pretty good and one was losing, rather then just replacing the queen alone, it might be better to make a nuc from the good hive that also has some older bees and them paper combine that with the failing hive.

    If this post shows just how stupid I am on bee things, that is ok. This is the way my brain prossesses info and if there was some kind of merit to the claim of trained mite responce as much as birth mite responce (not saying there is) then this is a proceedure to try.
    Cheers
    gww
    Last edited by gww; 04-05-2017 at 02:28 PM.
    zone 5b

  12. #91
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Nordac
    Yes, I deal in generalities and many times get the facts wrong. I usually am not that far off the way it is used for a point but I would always question my fact. You are correct and that was who I was trying to refer to. I always liked reading history but always hated the test cause they didn't want to know what happend but an exact date of when.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  13. #92
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    I always liked reading history but always hated the test cause they didn't want to know what happend
    I always found I learned more from instructors who not only expected you to know what happened, but more importantly, the given event's significance in the scheme of things and lessons gleaned from studied event. Those same instructors would probably make great beekeepers.

  14. #93
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    msl
    Your post #86 fits right along the lines of what mel Dieslkoan (I know spelled wrong) the mad splitter uses in an ipm sorta way.
    Thanks
    gww

    He has charts though, ha ha, just joking, good post.
    zone 5b

  15. #94
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Even tho I am I topbar guy(for$$ reasons, can't beat $25 a hive) I thought I would try the "dark side" this year, and starting messing around on CL to try to pick up a lang or 2 cheap to play with
    long story short I can't turn down a deal and it snowballed a bit as I picked up a bits and pices here and there
    I spent a grand total of $302 and I now have seven sets of 10f gear(2 deeps 3 meadum supers), Six 8f singles, and 6 f5 nucs, and bunch of other random items.
    Interesting story I didn't know that about you. What's the plan to stock those langs?

    And oh, since that is all stuff from failed beekeepers be VERY careful. Preferrably don't interchange anything (run each hive in quarantine) for at least the first year and keep an eye for AFB. But I guess you know that...
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  16. #95
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    GWW
    When I wrote it I had Palmer in mind, but most summer increase nucs are about the same
    Mel's OTS is one tool of many that can be used to manage mites but is not IMP on its own till its integrated in to a system with other tools

    OT, My thought is if some one set off a AFB bomb in the middle of the big city surrounded by BYBKs every few blocks word would be out. There are a few of the 8f boxes I don't have a "bought it new 3 years ago and never left the backyard" provenance on, and some deep frames I got from a stationary sideliner who cut the comb out to convert to mediums, he is somebody somebody on the state bee board and don't see him risking his good name for $50.
    that being said I have never seen or hurd of AFB out here and I think the whole AFB thing is over blown and see no reason to monitor for it

    jokes aside
    I am thinking about moving hives around and sticking all the langs in my out yard that I set up to see how the rabbit bush flow was
    I am coming out of the winter with 3 KTBH nucs with the comb = of about 7 deep frames each to use a brood factorys. The nucs are busting at the seams and I had to add space, the are drawing and laying up comb big time So those resources will go in to the starter finisher and matting nucs. a I have done cut comb strips in the past likely will do that again but if they get ahead of me or work picks up I might just OTS the lot
    From there I will cut the TB combs and rubber band in to lang frames to get the lang nucs running, they are built odd thinner wall and tight internal so they fit 5 frames but fit a 10f hive body like a Palmer, to the gole is to grow them out and convert a few of the 10fs, and over winter in that configuration, or in the 8f singles if I am over successful
    The 6 colonys I have now are the result of 3 swarm calls last year, but I got in the game late. This year I hope to do as well or better and am hanging traps as well, but swarms for me has been fest of famine so we shall see what the year holds
    Last edited by msl; 04-05-2017 at 05:10 PM.

  17. #96
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    msl
    I did read one other interesting study that I am sure that I can not find that muddies the water even more. It was talking about bees living with mite infections but the area of those infections were not or did not carry as many dmv viruses. So even if a guy is doing well with high or low mite counts it would still be hard to guage what is really going on because the virus might get worse and what worked before won't work now. Also, a study that the virus its self mutated based on survival with the virous being in a place that had lots of chance to move side ways to more host became more deadly because killing the bees did not kill its food but spread out viruses acted as more of a pest because it could not survive if it killed its host. This was talking about differrent strains of dmv. Since most of this is over my head, I just keep it in the back of my mind as I go along.
    If there is merit to the above, it shows nature is kinda full of its own little smartnesses.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  18. #97
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    msl
    Are you going to run the langs foundationless? If I was taking bees out of a long hive to put in a lang and my intention was to keep running the long hives, I think I would just use a teranov type split and let the new lang get the frames drawn out by all those young bees.

    It would be easier then having to do a cut out type move. What are your thoughts on something like that?

    Starting the lang that way with no capped brood would guarantee that you don't have a mite bomb to use against your neibor, at least in the beginning.

    Be calm, I used a smily face.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  19. #98
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Better be careful MSL that last post sounds like you'll soon have so many hives you will have to quite the other job and go commercial.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  20. #99

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    SiW.....
    The most interesting thing I saw on your link was down in the comment section.
    The position was taken that requeening is not enough for nonresistant hives and would not work. The position was that the workers teach each other.
    Yes, but only for a time, one generation of worker bees, as Ohlsson later noticed. Itīs an action you can take in an emergency, exchanging the hives so the better one triggers the hygienic behavior.
    To shift the queen must follow.
    This is not scientifically confirmed, so be careful.

    With requeening it is possible the queen has not the traits to resistance or the location prevents this. A. Wallner, who breeds mite biting bees, talks about that. He gives no guaranty when he sells queens.
    So I would rather shift with my own better queens after starting with better stock at the beginning.

    There were some stories with my tf acquaintances to combine failing hives after a high infestation so bee density allows better defense against mites.
    You need many hives for that.
    Could work, but with such stories it is the same as with stories about fishing...the fish caught are always bigger than they really are, in the angler`s view( no offense meant )

  21. #100
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    SiW.......
    Yes, I figured to take it with a grain of salt. It was just something I had not heard claimed before and so I found it interesting.
    If you have the time it is kinda fun seeing what is out there.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

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