A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new back y - Page 3
Page 3 of 40 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 797
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Susquehanna, PA, USA
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Ah, of course. Thank you.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,810

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    , I love your post even if I have a different position and say so on some things, I figure you are helping me learn and I may someday change my mind and I know you have a lot to offer on things I agree with.
    Bingo. I am here to learn, weather I find my self on the wrong end and get corrected, or dig deep to find research to back up my point, or end up finding info that deputes it, I am learning.
    Please do me a favor and watch the Michael Palmer video in the link I posted
    If fokes want to still talk mite bombs, some one start a thread in the pest area and I will hop over and play with ya.. but for here I am done.. I don't see it getting resolved and its muddying the waters.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    3,947

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    River...
    They can take our hives, but they'll never take our freedom.
    They can't even really take our hives cause it is too easy to get more. They probly could fine me enough that I give them up volintarily though.
    zone 5b

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    3,947

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    mls
    I have watched the michael palmer vidios, lots of them, I intend to steal lots of his methods. I also have read randy olivers ariticals with hard core views and read tom seeley and so much it is unbelievable.

    I may treat some day also.

    I want to know all my options but refuse to feel guilty if I do a little seeing for myself even if it causes me pain. There are just too many directions to look and so many ways to do things and I may not have the secret for myself yet, but I refuse to look down on those who do for themselves. If others are happy with the success they are getting by whatever route they take, I will help if they want it and I can, but won't think they are wrong if what they are doing is satifying them. I don't think the skep keepers that killed a third of their bees every year were wrong cause thier actions at the time reflected what bees were worth at the time. I would for myself, like to do a little better then that though.

    A million ways to skin a cat. I always watch you post here and elswhere and value them.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,810

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    So, getting back to (insert deffention here) IPM
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...11#post1168911
    This looks like a good way to do a split and leave most of the mites in the hive that gets the brood break and give a queen a fresh start with a low mite count and motivated work force

  7. #46

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    What emotions, wonderful how they are expressed in such a civilized way!

    Ok.

    MB said: let them fail. He did not say: let them die. We all, who want to be tf, using IPM or not, let our hives fail by shifting the queens, combining the weak or doing any other IPM. These are all IPM in my eyes. Every manipulation in benefit of some survivors.

    Hard bond comes as the last result after IPM. The moment will come when we, trying in earnest to leave it to the bees to survive AND be productive, will stop all IPM to see if the bees are in a state to survive on their own.
    But, after a time of IPM methods, we propably will have some hives left to go on with. Who wants to start new every few years?

    Squarepeg, who is in a lucky situation, does this already and now he pushes his bees to the limit.
    This is wonderful! Why ?
    Because I believe that he will be in a position to show the commercials that productive tf beekeeping is possible. He is a pioneer! He and others!

    And the moment the commercials decide it could be possible it will be possible for all beekeepers.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    9,946

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Squarepeg, who is in a lucky situation, does this already and now he pushes his bees to the limit.
    This is wonderful! Why ?
    Because I believe that he will be in a position to show the commercials that productive tf beekeeping is possible.
    Will be?

    Seems he already has shown it is possible.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  9. #48

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Will be?

    Seems he already has shown it is possible.
    Yes, for sure. But it must continue for some time on a high level. It will. He is sensitive to his bees and will know where to stop.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    TF=Treatment Free

    Still here and no you weren’t, you corrected a quote that could have been misinterpreted and have a demtmantral effect on this thread. I have just been spending some time choosing my words carefully


    Once again, scope creep, this isn’t about a beekeeper with 2k hives, 600 hives, or even 10-20 hives, this is about the BYBK with1-3 hives
    2nd, if you refer to the video link in the OP, MP treats once a year, and is a outspoken critic on mite bombers



    I think it was very much about mite bombs


    Hey were all have our own opinions based on our experiences and our inherent bias to data, I know I am bias to mite bombs are an issue, If you have a study showing the mite bomb is nonissue I would love to read it so I can adjust my stance, for me it’s not about being right, it’s learning.
    Also keep in mind if its not an issue for you, doesn't mean its not an issue in a different location, and I am focusing on a very particular location were it is an issue.

    So to head back to the direction SP is requesting as the mite bomb subject is getting in the way of information that is likely useful to both sides of that debate.

    Great post Ruthie!

    As we move in this direction I think it would be good to read Randys work on sugar dusting, He just updated it last month with the improved mite modeling and there are some good take homes on the treatment schedule to achieve meaningful impact on mite
    One study he sighted is showing 3.5% adult bee mortality rate at 4 days after treatment and a 50% mite kill per sugar treatment, couple that with Randy’s suggested treatment schedule and you’re not killing an insignificant amount of bees. 7% a month to just hold the mite pop stable with 2X treatments, and up 17-18% to hit the mites hard and really knock them back with 5 treatments 4-5 days apart. That a bit of a staggering number, better then losing the hive for sure, and it looks like it may be possibly to save it with sugar, but……I sure wasn’t expecting that kind of mortality rate. .
    One of the studies discussion points reminds us there is (almost) always a cost and some of this “feel good” stuff isn’t always effective and or negtivitaly impacts the bees much more so then we think.

    Does anyone have a link to a good study on OA treatments bee mortality rate? It would be interesting to run the numbers on % of bees killed to achieve mite reduction below threshold

    SP, for the sake of discussion how do we define chemical free?
    I don’t see a difference whether it’s SiO2*nH2O, C12H22O11, or H2C2O4 being put in the hive (DE, sugar, OA), they are all chemicals and all three can be acquired as food grade. OA and sugar are both plant based products (or synthesized and chemical the same) and part of our normal diet.
    DE is a registered pesticide, so I see little difference between using it vs OA.

    Perhaps it may be better to draw the line as nontoxic or bio mechanical ? it doesn't have the marketing buzz of chemical free, natural, or organic, but it is probably more descriptive of the intended use.
    I was going by the discussion of the authors. Not my conclusion. These are issues that all beekeepers must face up, yet I see only fingers pointed at the least significant cause and no willingness of many to question other more important practices. TF may produce mite bombs as an front loaded hazard. But by definition, we are concerned with production of tough stock that doesn't produce many of these, and less and less going forward. For instance, I have my first customer that will get a hive queened by a daughter of a vigorous 3 yr survivor, whose daughters also survive well. He is a new beekeeper, so he can do EVERYTHING wrong (except bring in foreign bees), but chances are he will not produce a mite bomb. This is the type of system stability we are looking for. Not something propped up by competence that may be there or not for various reasons as OT alluded to. We are also, though not as well understood, open to modifying habits that reduce long term disease risk. The mite bombs produced from a back yard beekeeper is a far cry from a truckload of diseased susceptible stock dumped near somebody else's apiary, a true violation of ecological principles.

  11. #50

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    It´s not the mite bombs in themselves, most susceptible hives die in winter,
    it´s the opinions of people realizing a change of managements which to them is a threat and a change of habits.

    Being kind of a criminal because of our laws my surviving as a tf beekeeper depends on IPM until I have resistant bees.
    No problem, this will only take more time.
    Ruth posts how one could proceed.

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,810

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Lharder, PM sent, if you wish I will engage you on the mid bomb topic more in the pest area, SP has bumped a Mite bomb thread back to life there, I am working my way thew its 16 pages

  13. #52
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    2,467

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    When I was a backyard beekeeper, I used the Bond method and it worked well for me. I would not use package bees (unless doing so were unavoidable, in which case, I would be as selective as practical about the package's provenance). Where I am, you do not have to have more than three hives to be treatment free. You need to use the right bees and good methods.

    If I were in another area, I would contact folks who do bee friendly cutouts in order to try to find local bees that are surviving treatment free, and I would try to locate successful local treatment free beekeepers to learn their methods. Different areas will have different flows and bees with different survival traits.
    David. The way you want to keep bees is most likely at least as good as any way that I could suggest. Probably better.

  14. #53

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post

    If I were in another area, I would contact folks who do bee friendly cutouts in order to try to find local bees that are surviving treatment free, and I would try to locate successful local treatment free beekeepers to learn their methods. Different areas will have different flows and bees with different survival traits.
    I would do that too if I were US.

    With me:
    No successful LOCAL tf beekeepers, no tf cutouts, no ferals, other beekeepers sceptic or hostile to tf, beeclub members ignorant of tf....bred queens from foreign countries which are more resistant are not adapted to the locale....

    Reading Beesource I feel a standstill in Germany which is very disturbing. Only some scientists are interested in VSH, which to me is a one way path.

    With my contacts I have some co workers to exchange stock, though. Somehow we will make it. Sorry to raise too much attention to myself.

  15. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,610

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    >The idea of mite bombs is OVERBLOWN.

    In my experience the mite reproduction centers are the treated bees. Mite bombs are from the treated bees or the escaped treated bees. The concept is just an excuse to explain why treating is failing.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  16. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    3,796

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    I must respectfully disagree with Michael. My experience is that mite bombs come largely from new beekeepers who are too scared to routinely monitor/inspect their bees. Mistakenly, many of them think that by doing nothing they (and their bees) are TF - yet they started out with commercially available packages and nucs. Then the bees die, and another beekeeper is lost.

    For me IPM is about detecting issues. I have tried using various commercial stocks to be TF in my area without success. I am all in favor of anything that reduces issues, and in techniques that in my estimation result in fewer treatments. I do not have patience for the so-called "TF" nuc makers who deliver bees loaded with mites to newbees, and whose own bees survived only because of the brood break, and that some (many?) of the mites went into the nuc in the capped brood.

    There is still too much hype around TF. Some can be attributed to sales pitches needed to keep the salesperson on the path; some to location, and some unfortunately, to predatory sales tactics.

  17. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    3,947

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Andrew
    I am probly stiring trouble here but here goes any way. From my side, I am not doing this with fighting intent but more just to keep thinking.
    I must respectfully disagree with Michael. My experience is that mite bombs come largely from new beekeepers who are too scared to routinely monitor/inspect their bees. Mistakenly, many of them think that by doing nothing they (and their bees) are TF - yet they started out with commercially available packages and nucs. Then the bees die, and another beekeeper is lost.
    My question would be, who would you think would lose the most bees to the trees or being left behind to find a home when the mother hive is moved? Would it be the one with only one or two hives or the one that has 1500 hives sitting in one space till they are needed for polination? Does the guy with 600 hives lose less swarms then the back yard guy with only 2 hives?

    I am pretty sure that once the bees hit the trees, they will be as loaded or more so in a pretty short time as the treatment free guys bees are. The ones that are left behind are going to find a home in hives that are still around.

    Or the big guy like the one in oldtimes post, just gets too old to stay on top of things or the help quits or the owner breaks his leg. These type of things don't add up to more then the impact of a back yard keeper with 2 hives?

    I am not buying that. I understand your point (I think) that you feel that keeping bees alive with brood breaks is not keeping them alive like treating is and is not as good. If that was not your point, I am sorry if I am missrepresenting it. I am not sure that I agree with your math but only have antidotal things to base that on. To me it is common sence to think that all these things are going to be happening and so in the end, praticing your beliefs on you bees will be what is left because the rest is going to happen from lots of differrent directions. It doesn't matter who wants to point at who as the responcible party for what some believe is a problim of mite bomb because there are so many ways for mites to be around. So if someone keeps bees with out treatment, that is what he faces and so if successful, he is still successful. If a treater faces the same thing and he is successful, then he is successful.
    Just a differrent view of the possibilities.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  18. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    3,796

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    @gww - no fighting intended from me either. I think alot of bees are sold as TF when they could better be described as bees kept alive with a great deal of intervention by the beekeeper. Maybe I am hoping for too much. TF bees, to me, ought to thrive on their own, with no special interventions and make a surplus honey crop.

    Yes, I understand stuff happens; As an example, I just found yesterday (this is Maine) that I'd lost my Wolfe Creek bees to a mouse or family of mice. This in a TBH. The bee's fault? Hardly. I don't expect them to be able to deal with mice/voles. I'll restock them with another WC package at $175 for the last time this year, chanting the mantra "third time pays for all." And install hardware cloth on the TBH late this coming summer.

    But, I also intend to count mites on this hive just ahead of winter bee raising time. (mid-August here abouts) Hopefully the bees will have the mites under control - I want to know.

    And to answer the points raised in your post, I'd rather have as a neighbor (for swarms) the dedicated commercial beekeeper than a bee haver.

    I tell students in my classes (Beginner and Intermediate), these are issues you or the bees are going to have to deal with. I don't much care what you do, as long as you do something.
    Last edited by Andrew Dewey; 04-03-2017 at 03:45 PM.

  19. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    9,946

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    if you wish I will engage you on the mid bomb topic more in the pest area, SP has bumped a Mite bomb thread back to life there, I am working my way thew its 16 pages
    Poor MSL must be in despair trying to keep his thread on topic , which is IPM not mite bombs.

    Realised I contributed to this myself with one of my posts on mite bombs. It's tempting to divide into teams and throw stones in this case TF vs non TF, who makes the most mite bombs. But in the end we live in our own back yard and do what we can, and sorry MSL for my part in taking the thread off topic.

    And the topic is the case for IPM.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  20. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    3,947

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Andrew
    I think I have gotten lucky on the mice thing once. I use 3/8 opening on my bottom board and did not do mouse guards. I did find a mouse making a nest between my insulation and top cover and so maby I just got lucky once. The traps I left out all year had a 50% infestation rate when I rebaited them this year.

    I think the problim with doing a good job or bad job has a lot to do with what you are expecting out of your bees. I bought my bees from someone who does not treat. I am doing no mite counts and taking it on faith that it is going to work. Oldtimer made a comment that rings true to me. He said that if you keep bees like the guy that sold them to you, you should have the same success that he is having if you can live with whatever that level of success is.

    What I think this guy does is keeps about 8 hives, he will pick a couple of them for honey production. He gets dead outs but has enough that still live to get his few prodution hives and make splits to replace his dead outs and then depending on the year has a few extra of the splits to sell. On real good years he probly can sell 5 or 6 and on bad years maby 1 or 2. He has did it for 20 years this way. He is satisfied with what he is doing. A more agressive guy would say he is wating resources and in three years he could have 100 hive out of those 8 hives. I think it misses the point that he is quite happy with his system and always has enough to make what he wants to make. He knows he could make more too but is not interested in working that hard. Who am I to say he is wrong in the way he keeps bees. I bought one from him. I am happy that he did not lie and I knew what was going on when I put down my money.

    I am not going to count mites. I will look for perferated brood caps and mite frass and will watch for crawlers and if a hive or five die, will do autopsys and make a new descision then. I might get scared or want to experment and do something before then. I figure it is up to me to find a way that I am successful in my eyes. It may not end up like what he is doing.

    I think all this discussion is good because during this journy, I am leaning of all the differrent ways that I can adjust this way or that till I hit what my success level might be.

    Some guys would not paint thier barn because they like the rustic look and some have every piece of trim possible and color cowardinated skeems that make thier stuff look show room clean.

    Both are deciding what is art in thier eyes and where to put thier efforts and money. Bee keeping is going to be the same with indidviduals getting to decide and that with the wild swarms is why the only right thing ever is how you handle your own stuff and how it fits with others and nature that is out of our control.

    I can not tell you where this is going to take me and how I will be managing my hives yet. I really don't care what anyone else does as long as they share what they are doing so I have more options on how to handle my stuff.

    Wishing you the best on your third time going to be money maker hive.
    Cheers
    gww

    Ps Hey oldtimer, you out typed me again. I know I have been part of the distraction however, spliting is part of the ipm and it did come up that it might not really count because it ends up being a mite bomb if not kept going and robs you of honey. In the end, my view, it sorta is about ipm working or not and maby a proper thing to be here? Not dictating (that is squarepegs job) just asking?
    zone 5b

  21. #60
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Denmark, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    247

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Does any know mike Palmer's treatment program?? I have searched the entire internet, even asked on here many times. I'm assuming it goes unanswered or ignored for some reason, but no one can give me the answer. Obviously it's working, but no one can tell me how he is treating. From the video posted he has tried mite away strips, and also OA vapor with no success. I would like to know what is successful and what is a successful mite treatment plan for a commercial apiary is??

Page 3 of 40 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •