Ah, of course. Thank you.
Ah, of course. Thank you.
Please do me a favor and watch the Michael Palmer video in the link I posted
If fokes want to still talk mite bombs, some one start a thread in the pest area and I will hop over and play with ya.. but for here I am done.. I don't see it getting resolved and its muddying the waters.
They can't even really take our hives cause it is too easy to get more. They probly could fine me enough that I give them up volintarily though.They can take our hives, but they'll never take our freedom.
I have watched the michael palmer vidios, lots of them, I intend to steal lots of his methods. I also have read randy olivers ariticals with hard core views and read tom seeley and so much it is unbelievable.
I may treat some day also.
I want to know all my options but refuse to feel guilty if I do a little seeing for myself even if it causes me pain. There are just too many directions to look and so many ways to do things and I may not have the secret for myself yet, but I refuse to look down on those who do for themselves. If others are happy with the success they are getting by whatever route they take, I will help if they want it and I can, but won't think they are wrong if what they are doing is satifying them. I don't think the skep keepers that killed a third of their bees every year were wrong cause thier actions at the time reflected what bees were worth at the time. I would for myself, like to do a little better then that though.
A million ways to skin a cat. I always watch you post here and elswhere and value them.
So, getting back to (insert deffention here) IPM
This looks like a good way to do a split and leave most of the mites in the hive that gets the brood break and give a queen a fresh start with a low mite count and motivated work force
What emotions, wonderful how they are expressed in such a civilized way!
MB said: let them fail. He did not say: let them die. We all, who want to be tf, using IPM or not, let our hives fail by shifting the queens, combining the weak or doing any other IPM. These are all IPM in my eyes. Every manipulation in benefit of some survivors.
Hard bond comes as the last result after IPM. The moment will come when we, trying in earnest to leave it to the bees to survive AND be productive, will stop all IPM to see if the bees are in a state to survive on their own.
But, after a time of IPM methods, we propably will have some hives left to go on with. Who wants to start new every few years?
Squarepeg, who is in a lucky situation, does this already and now he pushes his bees to the limit.
This is wonderful! Why ?
Because I believe that he will be in a position to show the commercials that productive tf beekeeping is possible. He is a pioneer! He and others!
And the moment the commercials decide it could be possible it will be possible for all beekeepers.
It´s not the mite bombs in themselves, most susceptible hives die in winter,
it´s the opinions of people realizing a change of managements which to them is a threat and a change of habits.
Being kind of a criminal because of our laws my surviving as a tf beekeeper depends on IPM until I have resistant bees.
No problem, this will only take more time.
Ruth posts how one could proceed.
Lharder, PM sent, if you wish I will engage you on the mid bomb topic more in the pest area, SP has bumped a Mite bomb thread back to life there, I am working my way thew its 16 pages
When I was a backyard beekeeper, I used the Bond method and it worked well for me. I would not use package bees (unless doing so were unavoidable, in which case, I would be as selective as practical about the package's provenance). Where I am, you do not have to have more than three hives to be treatment free. You need to use the right bees and good methods.
If I were in another area, I would contact folks who do bee friendly cutouts in order to try to find local bees that are surviving treatment free, and I would try to locate successful local treatment free beekeepers to learn their methods. Different areas will have different flows and bees with different survival traits.
No successful LOCAL tf beekeepers, no tf cutouts, no ferals, other beekeepers sceptic or hostile to tf, beeclub members ignorant of tf....bred queens from foreign countries which are more resistant are not adapted to the locale....
Reading Beesource I feel a standstill in Germany which is very disturbing. Only some scientists are interested in VSH, which to me is a one way path.
With my contacts I have some co workers to exchange stock, though. Somehow we will make it. Sorry to raise too much attention to myself.
>The idea of mite bombs is OVERBLOWN.
In my experience the mite reproduction centers are the treated bees. Mite bombs are from the treated bees or the escaped treated bees. The concept is just an excuse to explain why treating is failing.
I must respectfully disagree with Michael. My experience is that mite bombs come largely from new beekeepers who are too scared to routinely monitor/inspect their bees. Mistakenly, many of them think that by doing nothing they (and their bees) are TF - yet they started out with commercially available packages and nucs. Then the bees die, and another beekeeper is lost.
For me IPM is about detecting issues. I have tried using various commercial stocks to be TF in my area without success. I am all in favor of anything that reduces issues, and in techniques that in my estimation result in fewer treatments. I do not have patience for the so-called "TF" nuc makers who deliver bees loaded with mites to newbees, and whose own bees survived only because of the brood break, and that some (many?) of the mites went into the nuc in the capped brood.
There is still too much hype around TF. Some can be attributed to sales pitches needed to keep the salesperson on the path; some to location, and some unfortunately, to predatory sales tactics.
I am probly stiring trouble here but here goes any way. From my side, I am not doing this with fighting intent but more just to keep thinking.
My question would be, who would you think would lose the most bees to the trees or being left behind to find a home when the mother hive is moved? Would it be the one with only one or two hives or the one that has 1500 hives sitting in one space till they are needed for polination? Does the guy with 600 hives lose less swarms then the back yard guy with only 2 hives?I must respectfully disagree with Michael. My experience is that mite bombs come largely from new beekeepers who are too scared to routinely monitor/inspect their bees. Mistakenly, many of them think that by doing nothing they (and their bees) are TF - yet they started out with commercially available packages and nucs. Then the bees die, and another beekeeper is lost.
I am pretty sure that once the bees hit the trees, they will be as loaded or more so in a pretty short time as the treatment free guys bees are. The ones that are left behind are going to find a home in hives that are still around.
Or the big guy like the one in oldtimes post, just gets too old to stay on top of things or the help quits or the owner breaks his leg. These type of things don't add up to more then the impact of a back yard keeper with 2 hives?
I am not buying that. I understand your point (I think) that you feel that keeping bees alive with brood breaks is not keeping them alive like treating is and is not as good. If that was not your point, I am sorry if I am missrepresenting it. I am not sure that I agree with your math but only have antidotal things to base that on. To me it is common sence to think that all these things are going to be happening and so in the end, praticing your beliefs on you bees will be what is left because the rest is going to happen from lots of differrent directions. It doesn't matter who wants to point at who as the responcible party for what some believe is a problim of mite bomb because there are so many ways for mites to be around. So if someone keeps bees with out treatment, that is what he faces and so if successful, he is still successful. If a treater faces the same thing and he is successful, then he is successful.
Just a differrent view of the possibilities.
@gww - no fighting intended from me either. I think alot of bees are sold as TF when they could better be described as bees kept alive with a great deal of intervention by the beekeeper. Maybe I am hoping for too much. TF bees, to me, ought to thrive on their own, with no special interventions and make a surplus honey crop.
Yes, I understand stuff happens; As an example, I just found yesterday (this is Maine) that I'd lost my Wolfe Creek bees to a mouse or family of mice. This in a TBH. The bee's fault? Hardly. I don't expect them to be able to deal with mice/voles. I'll restock them with another WC package at $175 for the last time this year, chanting the mantra "third time pays for all." And install hardware cloth on the TBH late this coming summer.
But, I also intend to count mites on this hive just ahead of winter bee raising time. (mid-August here abouts) Hopefully the bees will have the mites under control - I want to know.
And to answer the points raised in your post, I'd rather have as a neighbor (for swarms) the dedicated commercial beekeeper than a bee haver.
I tell students in my classes (Beginner and Intermediate), these are issues you or the bees are going to have to deal with. I don't much care what you do, as long as you do something.
Last edited by Andrew Dewey; 04-03-2017 at 04:45 PM.
Realised I contributed to this myself with one of my posts on mite bombs. It's tempting to divide into teams and throw stones in this case TF vs non TF, who makes the most mite bombs. But in the end we live in our own back yard and do what we can, and sorry MSL for my part in taking the thread off topic.
And the topic is the case for IPM.
"Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker
I think I have gotten lucky on the mice thing once. I use 3/8 opening on my bottom board and did not do mouse guards. I did find a mouse making a nest between my insulation and top cover and so maby I just got lucky once. The traps I left out all year had a 50% infestation rate when I rebaited them this year.
I think the problim with doing a good job or bad job has a lot to do with what you are expecting out of your bees. I bought my bees from someone who does not treat. I am doing no mite counts and taking it on faith that it is going to work. Oldtimer made a comment that rings true to me. He said that if you keep bees like the guy that sold them to you, you should have the same success that he is having if you can live with whatever that level of success is.
What I think this guy does is keeps about 8 hives, he will pick a couple of them for honey production. He gets dead outs but has enough that still live to get his few prodution hives and make splits to replace his dead outs and then depending on the year has a few extra of the splits to sell. On real good years he probly can sell 5 or 6 and on bad years maby 1 or 2. He has did it for 20 years this way. He is satisfied with what he is doing. A more agressive guy would say he is wating resources and in three years he could have 100 hive out of those 8 hives. I think it misses the point that he is quite happy with his system and always has enough to make what he wants to make. He knows he could make more too but is not interested in working that hard. Who am I to say he is wrong in the way he keeps bees. I bought one from him. I am happy that he did not lie and I knew what was going on when I put down my money.
I am not going to count mites. I will look for perferated brood caps and mite frass and will watch for crawlers and if a hive or five die, will do autopsys and make a new descision then. I might get scared or want to experment and do something before then. I figure it is up to me to find a way that I am successful in my eyes. It may not end up like what he is doing.
I think all this discussion is good because during this journy, I am leaning of all the differrent ways that I can adjust this way or that till I hit what my success level might be.
Some guys would not paint thier barn because they like the rustic look and some have every piece of trim possible and color cowardinated skeems that make thier stuff look show room clean.
Both are deciding what is art in thier eyes and where to put thier efforts and money. Bee keeping is going to be the same with indidviduals getting to decide and that with the wild swarms is why the only right thing ever is how you handle your own stuff and how it fits with others and nature that is out of our control.
I can not tell you where this is going to take me and how I will be managing my hives yet. I really don't care what anyone else does as long as they share what they are doing so I have more options on how to handle my stuff.
Wishing you the best on your third time going to be money maker hive.
Ps Hey oldtimer, you out typed me again. I know I have been part of the distraction however, spliting is part of the ipm and it did come up that it might not really count because it ends up being a mite bomb if not kept going and robs you of honey. In the end, my view, it sorta is about ipm working or not and maby a proper thing to be here? Not dictating (that is squarepegs job) just asking?
Does any know mike Palmer's treatment program?? I have searched the entire internet, even asked on here many times. I'm assuming it goes unanswered or ignored for some reason, but no one can give me the answer. Obviously it's working, but no one can tell me how he is treating. From the video posted he has tried mite away strips, and also OA vapor with no success. I would like to know what is successful and what is a successful mite treatment plan for a commercial apiary is??