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  1. #61
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    As I understood what he told me he treats one time per year if that, but he actively selects for mite tolerance and runs with very low mite levels it has taken him years to get where he is. That's best memory serves, we talked about a lot of stuff.

    In fact he is probably an example of what this thread is about. If he had another 50 years to continue what he is doing, in theory he may well reach a point of no or very little treatment.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by ethanhogan View Post
    Does any know mike Palmer's treatment program?? I have searched the entire internet, even asked on here many times. I'm assuming it goes unanswered or ignored for some reason, but no one can give me the answer. Obviously it's working, but no one can tell me how he is treating. From the video posted he has tried mite away strips, and also OA vapor with no success. I would like to know what is successful and what is a successful mite treatment plan for a commercial apiary is??
    Watch this video. It is a candid Q&A with Michael Palmer done very recently. I feel that it answers your question...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GF3TOKf97U
    Working to propagate my survivors and staying treatment free USDA Zone 7b

  4. #63
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    We are all selecting for mite resistance imho, or should be if raising our own queens. Question is, what does he use to treat, how does he apply it in a time effiecent manner for 100+ hives. None I have got an answer for

  5. #64
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote from michael palmer in the thread (complete loss in SE michigan).
    Over the last 25 years, I have used a number of products for varroa control. I used OAV for three years and just about lost the farm. To be blunt, it just doesn't work here in the north. By the time the colony is broodless, the cluster is tight and the vapor doesn't penetrate that tight cluster. I've mentioned this before but don't harp on it. Don't want to get in an argument. So, vaped in November for two seasons. Huge varroa loads by the middle of the second summer. Vaped three times in September as per manufacturer recommendation. Alcohol wash count was 20-25 before gaping. After three vapes a week apart, and waiting another week at the end, alcohol wash counts were 20-25. Never vaped again. Waste of time and money. Sorry to those who experience such great results. I didn't find that.

    So now I use amitraz. Treatment applied in August when the honey is removed. Supers off...no compromise. My brood nests are two deeps and a medium. The medium stays on as part of the broodnest.

    All that said about treatments, breeding is an important part of the system. I've been adding VSH stock since 2004. I believe it is helping keep the varroa population down, getting the bees through harvest without crashing colonies. don't see DWV bees crawling on the ground in mid-summer, as I used to see.
    gww
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  6. #65
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Good find GWW, yes that's the same he told me.

    Have noticed MP doesn't talk much online about treatment, mostly avoids that debate, focusses on general beekeeping techniques that are of benefit to all.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  7. #66
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Oldtimer
    Yea, he gets a little rough in his vidios but mostly every thing but that that he does is usable by all and probly help all. I got lucky on that find but the other day I was searching like crazy to find the post he made on cut comb with all the pictures that was formatted sorta like your queen rearing thread was. I know it is there but I had no luck finding it. Like they say, even a blind squirl will find a nut once in a while.
    Cheers
    gww
    Ps He has also posted about handing out free queens to all his neibors to fix the deck a bit in his breeding program.
    zone 5b

  8. #67
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    i'm operating from memory here which is probably a dangerous thing, but i think michael takes his nucs into winter without being treated. if so, there may be a little winnowing going on with that practice, i.e. weeding out the most susceptible right off the bat.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #68
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    I asked the question from the thread you quoted gww. It in no way goes into detail about his treatment plan, it only tells me what has not worked. I don't want to know what doesn't work. I want to know what does work and how to use it, such as amitraz that he mentions. How he applies, how long does he leave it in, how is admisnistered, how does he do this cost effectively etc... I do not treat for anything at this time but would like to know how to use, acquire, and techniques with amitraz if I had to one day. No one can provide these answers, except apivar strips which don't appear time or cost effective. He doesn't have answer I know these are HOT subjects. I do not use any treatments at the time, and raise all of my own stock, and they winter well, but it would be nice to have some ammo in the shelter if it arises

  10. #69
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    eithanhogan
    Michael probly feels he did answer your question. He treats once a year, supers off, no compermize in august and probly figures you can read the lable on the how to use the product. It seems like a strait forward answer to me.
    Cheers
    gww
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  11. #70

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    The more I read about the IPM the more I think my lifetime will not be enough to have tf bees which survive on their own without my IPM managements if i don´t stop them sometimes in near future.

    Treating one time is what the toleranzzucht ag, a scientific association here, does ( they use oxalic acid in winter time) to select their mite tolerant hives ( not virus tolerant) and this I read yesterday in local our bee journal:
    Ich zitiere mal aus dem Bienenmagazin:
    Ralph Bücheler, Selektion varroaresistenter Völker:


    Zitat
    Die vom Institut seit 2014 in Mini-Plus-Beuten selektierten SMR (Nichtreproduzierende Milben) Population mit instrumentell besamten Königinnen durchlief 2016 die dritte Generation........trotz der gezielten Verpaarung ausgelesener Zuchtvölker ist es uns allerdings bisher nicht gelungen, das mittlere SMR- Niveau deutlich anzuheben und Völker auszulesen, deren Nachkommen zuverlässig hohe Resultate in der Größenordnung von 50% oder höher aufweisen.
    Toleranzzucht AG

    The selected SMR ( mite suppressing) populations, are now in the third generation 2016 started 2014 and are artificial inseminated. We still have no success to breed a higher level 50% or more of resistance in colonies in spite of having control about the matings.
    So I ask myself: what´s the use in this? Shall we wait unit MONSANTO sells us the new medicamentation they develop to kill the mites through a changed protein gene they want to feed the bees?
    Last edited by 1102009; 04-04-2017 at 12:47 AM.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Gww,
    If it's so straight forward, you must understand exactly how to use amitraz for 100+ colonies and treat them all in a time effiecent cost effective manner. So please, fill us in if the answer is so straight forward??? Where do you get amitraz in bulk? What is your treatment program, and a years worth of mite counts on 100+ individual production colonies? Yes, seems like a simple answer. How long do you leave amitraz in? What do you use to administer it, if not using apivar? Shop towels, pieces for r cardboard, rags, spray bottle, all are ways commercial operations use it. So please enlighten us all on this simple answer. Thanks

  13. #72
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by ethanhogan View Post
    Gww,
    If it's so straight forward, you must understand exactly how to use amitraz for 100+ colonies and treat them all in a time effiecent cost effective manner. So please, fill us in if the answer is so straight forward??? Where do you get amitraz in bulk? What is your treatment program, and a years worth of mite counts on 100+ individual production colonies? Yes, seems like a simple answer. How long do you leave amitraz in? What do you use to administer it, if not using apivar? Shop towels, pieces for r cardboard, rags, spray bottle, all are ways commercial operations use it. So please enlighten us all on this simple answer. Thanks
    ethan and gww, you may not realize that this thread is in the treatment free section. i've been ok so far with the posts as they have been civil and the thread topic is about the 'path to treatment free', but we are straying of topic here. please repost this in the 'diseases and pests' section and continue the discussion there.

    many thanks.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #73
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Sorry square. As stated I do not use treatments myself, but I do model my apiary after Kirk and Palmer. Their systems have not failed me. I have yet to use treatments due to that fact people are loosing the same amount if not more colonies then I am not using treatments. The reason I ask about amitraz was because of the video posted and the talk about treatments and breeding. As I grow to 50 plus this summer, and my endeavors comntinue, my outlook towards treating weighs on my mind. I am experiencing 25% losses in my production colonies with no treatments, and less then 5% in my double story nucs no treatments. As Palmer states he only experienced a 2% loss and 17% loss in the past 2 years. 2% would be nice, but as stated above other mite treatments in my local do not work, so using chemicals has not been a factor for me. I was just curious on how to use amitraz, if it does such a good job on mites for mike. Once again, sorry for talking about treatments, but it does relate to the video that was posted. Hopefully we can all work together treatments or not and develop a bee that can function under the pressure of mites. Something I too am passionate about.

  15. #74
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #75
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post
    I do not have patience for the so-called "TF" nuc makers who deliver bees loaded with mites to newbees, and whose own bees survived only because of the brood break, and that some (many?) of the mites went into the nuc in the capped brood.
    The flip side is if their bees are thriving enough with a just brood break that they can sell nucs I would like to get some of their stock.. IMHO the issue does not lie with the seller (Under the “rules” constant splitting is considered TF ), but with the end user who isn’t monitoring for mites or dealing with them. The problem once again is what I feel is the erroneous message new keepers get that TF = hands off, easy, low maintenance, just see if they make it beekeeping.
    The other take home is how you make your spits matters , mites are in capped brood and mostly on nurse bees, more on this in a bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Poor MSL must be in despair trying to keep his thread on topic , which is IPM not mite bombs.
    No dispair at all
    One of my main arguments in the OP was for the necessity (as opposed to it just being good and eftive TF beekeeping) of IMP in TF was mite bombs are bad for beekeepers around you.
    So if you don’t want to be bothered putting in the work to stop Mite bombs, your natural point of view will be mite bombs are hype, otherwise it’s hard to justify your behavior. If you’re not hurting anyone else, who has the right to tell you how to keep your bees!!
    So attacking the validity of mite bombs will be the normal and expected strategy of such people.
    As such I posted the OP fully prepared to defend my position with in the context of BYBK, even tho I have Palmer, Oliver, and Seeley on the record saying they are bad, in beekeeping you don’t get much more definitive then that, but beekeepers are beekeepers .

    however this happed
    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    let's see if we can move this discussion forward using ruthie's approach as a starting point to hash out the nonchemical ipm options.
    out of respect I took the not so subtle hint most seemed to miss and tried to back SP to move the discussion…. Biting my tongue is not my strong suit, I am prepared and itching for that fight, which is why I kindly and repeatability ask them to “cash me outside”

    That being said, I do want to touch on one of GWW's questions as I feel it has a good lead in to direct take home points for the development of a Physical IMP program,
    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    I am pretty sure that once the bees hit the trees, they will be as loaded or more so in a pretty short time as the treatment free guys bees are
    One would hope the TF guys mites would be less, kind the point of the thread is to teach them how to KNOW what the mite load and hopefully take action be for cems become the only option to prevent a bomb. I think we should clarify at this point mite bombs are not a TF issue, they are a bad beekeeping issue

    but let’s talk about about the "trees" as the escapee issue often comes up
    The carrying capacity of an area limited to its suitable nesting sites and we have seen that population’s densities remains stable. So in a nut shell for one swam to make it an established colony needs to fail. This is one reason swarm trapping has proven so effective.

    Next we have nest size; the “trees” are much smaller than a production hive. So in theory, if all things are equal the hive with the much smaller volume will swarm 1st, taking up any nesting spots opened up by dead outs before the larger production hives that are being manged to stop swarm prep, get around to swarming. I suggest this is one of the main reasons DNA study’s do not show in ingress of commercial genetics in to the feral population. So the escaped swarm dies, and with no honey to attract robbers the mites die with them.

    Smaller nest means more swarms, less brood, so less mites, but also less honey so the impact and chances of a feral crashing is less then big production hive as not only the amount of mites is lower, but so is the amount of bees that rob it

    why, well looks at what happens.
    A 10f deep + a super is about the top end of a feral nest… when you stack a double deep + a bunch of suppers in to a sky scraper hive you have gotten massively oversize… filling that volume takes bees, lots of bees. That means brood, lots of brood, that means lots of mites, lots of mites. Then bee population drops off sharply heading to winter cluster level at the moment mite production is maxing out. So really the number of mites doesn’t change much, but with less bees the ratio of mites to bees goes through the roof.
    So the bigger the pop is over the wintering cluster size the more likelihood of the hive crashing. I think this is one reason summer increase nucs do well, on top of the brood break, do to being started small, they are building up to winter cluster size instead of shrinking to it, so even if both hives started with the same mite load, they end with very different ones when its time to make winter bees .

    one maybe able (I have not proven this) do a summer flyaway spilt on a colony showing mite issues(even commercial stock), then break the e-cells in the original into nucs, hit them with sugar at the point there is not capped brood and have some relatively clean stock to work with come spring and requeen.

    Now this kind of hive count is outside of the definition of BYBK as used in this thread unless they are banding together or can place some nucs at a neighbors or friend or hide the numbers in palmers. But it is with in the relm of possibility, so I will run with it a bit further

    No the topic getting glassed over is lets talk open mating in a urban area
    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Looks like .5 feral colonies per km squared in rural forested area and 2.3 feral colonies in urban area buildings, across NY State, Vischer and Seeley 1982, Morse et al 1990.
    ok so I last year I was aware of about 12 colony’s kept by 5 beekeepers with in 1.5k of my hives, this is not counting my 6 or the mite bombers 12 as we and our site are not the norm, we fit more in the rural definition, ok so figger the real number is likely at least 2x that hiding behind back yard fences and such so call it 24 So that’s 3.4 managed hives per KM2. So by strait numbers it’s a 40% chance a given swarm or drone is feral.. Probly better than 50/50 once you figure in that most bee keepers work to suppress swarm and drone production.

    I can’t find the SP quote I was looking for so I will parphaces. JWChesnut is fond of telling us small operations can’t do much except drift toward the background pop, but if the back ground pop is something we want, that’s a good thing

    So yes a BYBK may be able to open mate commercial stock and get some local adapted genetics in the f1 cross and that may be an improvement over the mother queen, you realy won’t know the value of her as a breeder for 2 years. But to get to f2, take 10 cells in matting nucs, 5 will have 100% commercial stock genes, 5 will have 50% local genes, of those 5 maybe 2 will show promise depending on how they are mated.
    Now that’s just assuming the local adapted stock is something you want, and not just only surviving 16 months or so in a small cavity, long enough to toss a few swarms come spring/summer and then crash.

    So that’s a few years and quite a bit of wood wear and resources (10 full sized hives) to select for those 2 queens. This is what I am referring to when saying the normal BYBK is not realistically going to be developing or propagating any sort of stock, so we should not be telling them should be trying or expecting to. Now as I have said before a RBK with a bit more control over the areas gentinicks and the space for a higher hive count is a very different story

    Practical application/cliff notes for those just skimming this post

    Commercial stock swarms have little effect on the feral pop and mite bombs

    Someone who wishes to manage with Physical IMP may be able to head off a mite bomb by doing a fly away spit leaving the capped brood , nurse bees , and most of the mites in the hive that gets the brood break and giving the old queen a fresh start in a new hive
    Adding a sugar dusting timed right so there is no capped brood would add a second knockout punch to the mites if your not apposed to it. The new hive would be dusted ASAP as soon as the bulk of the foragers have returned for the night or early in the next morning.
    The old hive draws cells and can be split in to nucs and dusted when there is no more capped brood but before the new queens start laying (about 21 days from fly away split) this gives you a shot at some local adaption in the new queens and a nuc to requeen come spring.

    Because summer nucs are growing towards winter cluster size, not shrinking down like a production hive, their mite loads in late fall will be less than a full sized hive if they started at the same mite load. Now start that nuc with a cell and hit them with sugar while they are brood less and you are sending them into winter in good shape.....if they don't get bombed

    The BYBK is unlikely to develop a feasible breeding/selection program, but raising their own queens may be of some help depending on the background pop if they have no other options.

    The amount of feral bees is urban areas is surprising high and can be good hunting, swarm trapping with traps 500m apart (4 per KM2) or less is not necessarily over kill based on feral denistys, and especially if you count swarms from other BYBKs.

    Palmers and hive bodys used as nucs separated by plywood and stacked on each other look like a single hive to zoning officials.
    Last edited by msl; 04-04-2017 at 02:45 PM.

  17. #76

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Love this thread. We commercial guys get the rap a lot. But more than anything and probably more than anyone on here we would love to be treatment free. That money would go a long ways. But when weighed in the balance of high losses or treatments as a business we are forced to treat. And I do realize we are part of the problem. We should just quit selling bees to everyone that wants some bees. But that too goes against good business practices.
    We have VSH mixed with Minn Hyg queens. We buy new queens and bring their genetics in every year when we hear about successful breeders. We select our breeders by the usual qualities but we added mite loads in August before treatment as one of the qualifiers. We are starting to see slight changes. It will take years.

    BUT I believe someone is going to break the code. I think it will be the commercial queen producers, one of the labs or universities that will get it done. More than likely a combination.

    I have heard it said a commercial guy moved in and the mite load went up. I dont doubt it. The mites are begging to find an easier target. We simply cannot afford to let them die for a few bucks in treatments. But we would love to save the time and money. You can believe that.

    Please, please find a way to make us a customer of your genetics. I will make the investment and pop every one of our queens in a heartbeat. I am happy many are able to be TF. I long for the day I can say the same. Then of course a new problem will arise and we can all start over once again.

  18. #77
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Mls
    Good post. I think it might not be reconizing a couple of small things. When talking about swarms and wild hive.
    1. All the hives treated or otherwise have mites.
    2. Splits and swarming only reduce the mites even if no brood is moved.
    3. Even all treatment knock down rates only hit the 90 percent mark leaving some live mites.
    4. Drones are welcome in every hive.
    The second part is that some treatment free people and some of seeleys work shows that some hives go into winter with what many would consider high mite load and do ok and have some not understood mechinizem that keeps the mite load even though high leveled out.

    The reason to mention these things is because these are the things that make setting a standard of what bee resistance and strength of what a truly strong make up of a bee that needs the fewest ipm performed on it and it will still survive.

    One case for hard bond is that some bees are going into winter with high mite loads and still booming in spring. Some ipm is going to be done either by the bees or by the bee keeper for increase.

    If there were no things to point at where bees were surviving in lots of differrent situations, it would be easyer to say this is a bad practice. If there were no failers in one way of handling bees, a guy could say this is the only right way.

    Ipm is just one path to try to get closer to bees that resist mites with out help.

    Ipm should not be the goal but more the tool to get to the goal.

    So the part of your discussion on swarms making no impact (my take maby not what you ment) Does not ring true as the whole story to me. If swarms from non stressed bees leave and then being on their own have to put up with the extra stress, if they due to being what they are handle such stress badly and become more easily overloaded and also breed, it is likely they have just as bad of an impact as the poor beekeeper with two hives and it is just as likely being something that will be out of our control. I have read all those studies too.

    In the same studies that are pointing out small hive, swarm often and at a distance from each other, the other part is they are hard bond stressed.

    So if a backyard beekeeper has some success in hard bond and maby some ipm, one still can not say they are hurting everyone more then anyone else is.

    I believe there are poeple out there that don't manage there hives and still have bees for multiple years.

    If a person is wanting to help the new bee keeper just starting out, his best bet is to point out that in a way bees are kinda individual too and this is what I have did and have been successful with mine and I think it might help you with yours.

    Somebody else doing the same, Hey this is what I do.

    The new bee keeper dicides from those things to look at and goes a certain way.

    The key for the new bee keeper will be to watch his bees and if things go hey wire, try and figure what is causing it to go hey wire and make adjustments with his bees. After getting real good with his bees, he can take what he has learned and go out and try to save the world.

    Ipm is one tool in the chest but it is not the goal. Due to the wide differrences in bees, I do find ipm a little hard to wrap my head around of the actual targets you set to act opon. If you say when my hive gets to 2 percent, I am either going to kill it, treat it or requeen it, or split it so it doesn't affect other hives, that leaves out the fact that some hives are going into winter higher then that and rebounding even stronger then they were in spring. If you set your targets too low, then you really don't find out what was possible and might miss something good. Of course you could miss a step forward by doing that if they died. I am not convince anyone has a sure answer cause if they did there would no longer be the question.

    I am willing to let the guy who put his skin in the game try it his way.
    Cheers
    gww
    Ps too your point that if a swam leaves one in the area has to die to make room. It is the same with deer, they get to populated and along comes black toung to bring the population back in line. Maby lots of swarms in a small area have the same effect on bees and does it with mites the bee communicable diseise.
    Last edited by gww; 04-04-2017 at 05:34 PM.
    zone 5b

  19. #78
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    Ipm should not be the goal but more the tool to get to the goal.
    Agree 100%, at least for the BYBK. Some one doing real work on a breading program is a different story( Ie I don't know how some one small would reasonably select for virus resistance with out bond), and beyond the scope of this thread.

    edit...some how this posted before I was done writing???? i will post below GWW so the edit dosn't make his post screwey
    Last edited by msl; 04-04-2017 at 08:17 PM.

  20. #79
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    mls
    One of my main arguments in the OP was for the necessity (as opposed to it just being good and eftive TF beekeeping) of IMP in TF was mite bombs are bad for beekeepers around you.
    So if you don’t want to be bothered putting in the work to stop Mite bombs, your natural point of view will be mite bombs are hype, otherwise it’s hard to justify your behavior. If you’re not hurting anyone else, who has the right to tell you how to keep your bees!!
    So attacking the validity of mite bombs will be the normal and expected strategy of such people.
    This thread is a case or path rather then bond for ipm for the new bee keeper.

    That means discussing is there a better case for ipm. Since we are talking about what new bee keepers should do. The case that I make is that the new beekeeper with 2 or three hives would have to worry about outside influinces that he had no control over and so how he kept his bees is what he needed to worry about. Part of the is deciding what the end goal is and what tools to get there.

    The result is advice that one avenue is cut off to him because he might be harming others more then a good bee keeper might harm others.

    So that brings up the discussion of right and wrong on effect of him on others and the fact that due to all the avenues of keeping bees being differrent, the math to deciding who is hurting others the most by the way they are keeping bees becomes more important then him keeping his bees alive. I think there is enough blame everywhere depending on who gets to decide that the new bee keeper might do better just learning what is out there and then using the parts he thinks will help with his bees based on his goals and what he is willing to suffer to reach those goals.

    The decision he makes will affect him much more then his three hives will effect the environment compared to everything else that also effects the environment. So if he choses to go hard bond and it worked in a good enough fassion that he could live with, it would still be working and lazy or not lazy would have nothing to do with it and may have nothing to do with the reasons for doing it. If he loses his hives then he will have to adjust no matter how lazy he is if he wants to keep the same bees he tried to keep before. He is defanatly not lazyer than someone who treats once a year by a calender and that is all he does because he has found that that works.

    If he makes the decision that while trying to get to the TF spot it would better to shake powder sugar on once a month and make a split every year on april 15, or just destroy all brood every spring for a reset, or pull the queen for two weeks or whatever, if he does this cause he believes it give him a better chance to be treatment free in the end with less loss. If he is successful, then he is still sucessful. If the discussion to the new guy is that a case can be made that this is a route you could go and he decides it has merit, He will be a good bee keeper in somes eyes and still a bad one in those eyes that like thier method better because it is not as hard. They are not lazy on the goal of keeping good bees, just on that they feel thier way is better. Lazy, Hillbilly in this thread sounded lazy when thinking if he could have treatment free bees it would save him money and work but reconizes that he also needs to make a living and has to work for it. So he would like to get where he could be lazy.

    I am lazy and so I hope my bees live and let me stay that way. If they die, Those bees wont bee hurting anyone for long and I will still be lazy when I get more but will still do more to be successful.

    I would say the person making a case for ipm is the one doing it and sharing thier experiance and those discussing the tools, This means you post and ideals also mls. I do think you wrote a pretty good post.

    I don't even mind if your belief is that it is a bad bee keeper that doesn't count mites 4 times a year.

    I like the guy that experments and post his successes and failure of what he actually does. Now that is something to analyze.

    For all you hard bonders out there that are successful, I love your stuff and you unsuccessful ones that try, I like your spunk. For the ipm people, I like knowing every tool in the box. For the new guy just starting, It is fun and hard learning all the tools you might use.

    So in the end, even though it is true that
    So if you don’t want to be bothered putting in the work to stop Mite bombs
    That it could be being done for other reasons then not wanting to be bothered with putting in the work. Who would lose 5 hives cause they didn't want to be bothered. Why get bees at all if you don't want to be bothered.

    There are other reasons then just not wanting to be bothered though if we ever get the bees to that point, not being bothered would be nice.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  21. #80
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    The case that I make is that the new beekeeper with 2 or three hives would have to worry about outside influences that he had no control over and so how he kept his bees is what he needed to worry about.
    Weather you worry or stick your head in the sand the outcome is only changed by action
    Teaching IMP Is actually a 1-2 punch....If people learn to track mites and take action when/if needed, that stops the outgoing bomb from forming. but what your missing is it also allows the beekeeper on the receiving end of one to know there is a issue and take corrective action.
    As Michael Bush said
    It seems like there are at least two components to success. The first is to create a stable system so that the mite population is not increasing within the hive. The second is to find a way to monitor and recover from that occasional sudden influx of mites. Conditions that cause the mites to skyrocket seem to be in the fall when the hives rob out other hives crashing from mites and bring home a lot of hitchhikers.
    I monitor the mites with a white board under the SBB. As long as the mites stay under control, and so far, since 2002 they have, that's all I do. If the mites were to start going up while the supers are on I would probably fog with FGMO or dust with powdered sugar. If they were still high after fall harvest, I would use Oxalic Acid vapor. So far I haven't needed them since the bees were regressed
    IPM at its finest, attaining the systems ultimate goal of being chemical free while helping protect the beekeeper from economic harm
    I don't want to copy paste the whole page so head over there to get the full context!http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm

    so back to what I was typing in the last post
    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    I do find ipm a little hard to wrap my head around of the actual targets you set to act opon. If you say when my hive gets to 2 percent, I am either going to kill it, treat it or requeen it, or split it so it doesn't affect other hives, that leaves out the fact that some hives are going into winter higher then that and rebounding even stronger then they were in spring. If you set your targets too low, then you really don't find out what was possible and might miss something good.
    You are refering to action threshold. There are 3 main ones to be looked at depending on your goles.
    The level your harvest is impacted and the level that left unchecked will lead to probable loss of the colony and the level where you have let thing go to far an the hive is likely the walking dead
    randy says
    I’ve found that if I keep the mite infestation rate below the 2% level (2 mites per 100 bees) that my colonies thrive. But should that rate reach 5%, then I start seeing the brood fall apart. By the time the rate reaches 15%, the colony is generally seriously on the way downhill, and even with treatment may not recover.
    another source says
    As of spring 2016, many experts are using a threshold of 3% infestation (3 mites / 100 bees, or 9 mites in your ½ cup sample). This number may change over time, or by region. Make sure that you check with other beekeepers, extension, and tech transfer teams to learn current thresholds.
    Micheal Bush says
    Put the board under it and wait 24 hours and count the mites. It's better to do this over several days and average the numbers, but if you have a few mites (0 to 20) you aren't in too bad of shape if you have a lot (50 or more) in 24 hours you need to do something.
    If I crunched MB's numbers right a 4.5% infestation is the end of not to bad and 11% you better be doing something to save the hive, dovetails fairly well with Randy's numbers.... now if you look at MB's state inspection records his mites run 2% or less, so if your hitting 5% things aren't workin and you need to up your measures (say start drone culling) and if you hit 10% maby its time to take stronger action to save the hive. All these numbers are spitball and you need input from your locals
    Last edited by msl; 04-04-2017 at 09:06 PM.

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