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  1. #781
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    MSL
    I would respectfully suggest that your math assumption of 3.5/100 is incorrect.
    21 count /300 =7% would be correct.
    Most research in hive mite total population shows that 75-80% are in the brood so you should divide 7% by either 4 for 75% or 5 for 80%.

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  3. #782
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    Wouldn't the ones raised in Ontario fit the bill?

    Alex
    Actually I did check on shipping in Queens from Ontario. They need to go into some sort of Quarantine for 48 Hours and be inspected, and Have some sort of Import license. If any one knows the process I would be interested to get links to it. State to state is not bad , Canada to USA has a few more hoops to jump thru. Life any thing thru customs and immigration is not an easy trail. If I find anything I will post. Good idea, not sure of the logistics.
    GG

  4. #783
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Man will "manage" bees into extinction if allowed.
    Name one economically important species of domesticate live stock that has been allowed to go extinct

    Most research in hive mite total population shows that 75-80% are in the brood

    You have to rember a wash gives you the percentage of mites to bees in the brood nest. But its not telling you the advrage mites poric mites in the whole hive (with out more math) the brood nest is a much higher number, and its used as its the most stable and repeatable.

    as such its just a number, that the bean counters then correlated with the effect on the hive, then backed it up to come up with thresholds that are predictive of pending economic impacts on the hive.
    Research has shown that if you X it by 1.8 you have a number representative of the total infestation when brooded up see Lee Et Al (2010), https://articles.extension.org/media..._mellifera.pdf
    Most just 2x it for simplicity

    look at it this way… shooting spitball numbers- A bee lives for about 6 weeks and is a nurse for about 1 week, so most of the phoric mites are on 1/6 of the bees

    so if you roll 6% on nurse bees that really means something like 2% phoric and 10.8%(6x1.8) overall infestation(if you have brood). That’s 81.48% in the brood. Not bad for spitball numbers ! So if you roll 6% with no brood its about 1/2 the over all infestation then if there was brood

    While I am back on this thread, Here is the Tarpy lab report card for Sam Comforts 1 comb splits 49785038_1056177634590219_4405013420154071021_n(1).jpg
    very good queens indeed! Sam states "All queens are well above national averages, better than most anything ever grafted at #anarchyapiaries"
    Last edited by msl; 03-19-2019 at 11:58 AM.

  5. #784
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    >...we are all made of the same four genes- C,T,A and G.

    These are not genes. DNA is made up of them and Genes are made up of DNA.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  6. #785
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >...we are all made of the same four genes- C,T,A and G.

    These are not genes. DNA is made up of them and Genes are made up of DNA.
    Genes are not made up of DNA either.

    Genes are specific sections of the DNA molecule that are responsible for generation of specific proteins.
    The DNA is a mega-molecule that consists of a dual-chain of amino-acids stuck together in pair (specifically four amino-acids denoted as - C, T, A, and G for brevity).

    Added:
    right, I did not want to get too deep into this - RNA, etc, etc....
    Just the most basic semantics still should be correct.
    Last edited by GregV; 03-19-2019 at 07:34 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #786
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Well lets not get too confused over semantics...

    Genes are sequences of DNA that are translated into mRNA which actually codes for the proteins. Cytosine, Thymine, Adenine, and Guanine are nucleic acids (nucleotides). Thymine is substituted with Uracil in RNA. Amino acids are the basic building blocks of proteins and are coded for by sequences of 3 nucleotides.

  8. #787
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    This always gets sticky when describing DNA as a molecule, and especially when there are sections of DNA that do not code for proteins but instead act as regulators for cell functions.

    A chromosome is a molecule of DNA made of ATCG and folded up somewhat like a rope coiled into a bucket. Transcribing the DNA requires regulatory inputs as well as specialized enzymes to uncoil the chromosome, transcribe the required "gene", then re-coil the chromosome and put it back in storage. Yes, I know this is simplified. Yes, I know there are exceptions, yes I know RNA is kind of like the runner who goes around and does what the DNA tells it to do.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  9. #788
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Thank you for pointing out the flaws in my statement in an even handed pragmatic manner.....unlike Richard Cryberg who saw fit to send me two toxic PM's on this subject. I told him to post it on the boards......

  10. #789
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    WeLLL! Thats one way to kill a thread. Sorry.

  11. #790
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    This, so much this!
    In my view this is how you shift and an area to resistant genetics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvv9lqhxYf0

  12. #791
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    This, so much this!
    In my view this is how you shift and an area to resistant genetics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvv9lqhxYf0
    Wow in the above Youtube at 55 min or so they are saying up to 18 miles to have queens fly still end up well mated.
    Brings up whole new concepts for open mating and TF. Not really your drones doing the mating, unless you have a fairly big area covered with hives.
    GG

  13. #792
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    It will be interesting to see some data coming out of Iain Glass's work. Hopefully I will be getting a couple of his queens early this spring. They will be part of a study that will get off the ground this year. Over time I hope to have good genetic information about what is going on re mixing and genetic dilution etc.

    Ultimately, the key to improving herd resistance, is to persuade keepers that selection for resistance is important. I hear very little about this from those that are supposedly in charge of provincial bee health. It would be helpful if they started talking about it.

  14. #793
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    In my view this is how you shift and an area to resistant genetics.
    interesting link msl, many thanks. troubled colonies get treated, their genetics are dead ended and subsequently shifted to bond tested breeding stock, similar to what randy oliver is doing. noteworthy is that level of cooperation among beekeepers has been achieved.

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    It will be interesting to see some data coming out of Iain Glass's work. Hopefully I will be getting a couple of his queens early this spring. They will be part of a study that will get off the ground this year. Over time I hope to have good genetic information about what is going on re mixing and genetic dilution etc.
    excellent. sounds like a bit more than a little scientific involvement. way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    Ultimately, the key to improving herd resistance, is to persuade keepers that selection for resistance is important. I hear very little about this from those that are supposedly in charge of provincial bee health. It would be helpful if they started talking about it.
    sounds like iain has managed to get a fair number of folks interested if they are willing to engage their combined 1000 colonies with the process. perhaps the provincial officials will eventually take notice.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #794
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    This, so much this!
    In my view this is how you shift and an area to resistant genetics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvv9lqhxYf0
    MSL:

    Just finished listening to this podcast- thank you for sharing. Very interesting stuff...

  16. #795
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    in the podcast iain talks about keeping drones from leaving susceptible colonies by placing a queen excluder on the bottom of the stack. i'm wondering how they keep the excluder from getting clogged up with dead drones.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #796
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Actually I did check on shipping in Queens from Ontario. They need to go into some sort of Quarantine for 48 Hours and be inspected, and Have some sort of Import license. If any one knows the process I would be interested to get links to it. State to state is not bad , Canada to USA has a few more hoops to jump thru. Life any thing thru customs and immigration is not an easy trail. If I find anything I will post. Good idea, not sure of the logistics.
    GG
    I did get a reply if anyone is interested:
    Sorry for the delay. Packaged bees and queens can be imported to the US from Canada. The supplier in Ontario will need to get an export certificate (Zoosanitary Certificate) from their local Canadian Food Inspection Agency officer. This certificate must accompany the bee shipment. In addition to the certificate the USDA must be notified 10 days prior to the bees arriving at the border. This notification can be emailed to me or to [email protected].

    Here is the formal language of the regulation. There are no fees involved.

    §322.6 Export certificate.
    Each shipment of bees and honeybee germ plasm arriving in the United States from an approved region must be accompanied by an export certificate issued by the appropriate regulatory agency of the national government of the exporting region.
    (a) Adult honeybees. (1) For adult honeybees, the export certificate must:
    (i) Certify that the hives from which the honeybees in the shipment were derived were individually inspected by an official of the regulatory agency no more than 10 days prior to export;
    (ii) Identify any diseases, parasites, or undesirable species or subspecies of honeybee found in the hive during that preexport inspection; and
    (iii) Certify that the bees in the shipment were produced in the exporting region and are the offspring of bees or semen also produced in the exporting region.
    (2) If the export certificate identifies a bee disease or parasite of concern to the United States, including, but not limited to, Thai sacbrood virus, Tropilaelaps clareae, and Euvarroa sinhai, or an undesirable species or subspecies of honeybee, including, but not limited to, the Cape honeybee (Apis mellifera capensis) and the Oriental honeybee (Apis cerana), as occurring in the hive from which the shipment was derived, we will refuse the shipment's entry into the United States.
    (b) Honeybee germ plasm. (1) For honeybee germ plasm, the export certificate must:
    (i) Certify that the hives from which the germ plasm in each shipment was derived were individually inspected by an official of the regulatory agency no more than 10 days prior to export;
    (ii) Identify any diseases, parasites, or undesirable species or subspecies of honeybee found in the hive during that preexport inspection; and
    (iii) Certify that the bees in the hives from which the shipment was derived were produced in the exporting region and are the offspring of bees or semen also produced in the exporting region.
    (2) If the export certificate identifies a bee disease or parasite of concern to the United States, including, but not limited to, Thai sacbrood virus, Tropilaelaps clareae, and Euvarroa sinhai, or an undesirable species or subspecies of honeybee, including, but not limited to, the Cape honeybee (Apis mellifera capensis) and the Oriental honeybee (Apis cerana), as occurring in the hive from which the shipment was derived, we will refuse the shipment's entry into the United States.
    (c) Bees other than honeybees. For bees other than honeybees, the export certificate must certify that the bees in the shipment were produced in the exporting region and are the offspring of bees or semen also produced in the exporting region.
    (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 0579-0207)
    Back to Top
    §322.7 Notice of arrival.
    (a) At least 10 business days prior to the arrival in the United States of any shipment of bees or honeybee germ plasm imported into the United States under this subpart, you must notify APHIS of the impending arrival. Your notification must include the following information:
    (1) Your name, address, and telephone number;
    (2) The name and address of the receiving apiary;
    (3) The name, address, and telephone number of the producer;
    (4) The U.S. port where you expect the shipment to arrive. The port must be staffed by an APHIS inspector (see §322.11);
    (5) The date you expect the shipment to arrive at that U.S. port;
    (6) The scientific name(s) of the organisms in the shipment;
    (7) A description of the shipment (i.e., package bees, queen bees, nest boxes, etc.); and
    (8) The total number of organisms you expect to receive.
    (b) You must provide the notification to APHIS through one of the following means:
    (1) By mail to the Permit Unit, PPQ, APHIS, 4700 River Road Unit 133, Riverdale, MD 20737-1236; or
    (2) By facsimile at (301) 734-8700; or
    (3) By electronic mail to [email protected], or
    (4) Using a U.S. Government electronic information exchange system or other authorized method.

    Start with Email to :

    To: APHIS-Pest Permits <[email protected]>

    GG

  18. #797
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Given a free hand natural selection will strengthen the bloodlines. That's how life works.

    Do you disagree with any of that?

    Mike (UK)
    I disagree. Natural selection is not survival of the stronger blood organism. It is not even survival of the fittest like evolutionist Wallace, Spencer and Darwin agree with this in XIX century. It is only survival of the fit enough in very specific short time (when we talking about life) moment in environment.

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