ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    No one doubts that bees use water evaporation to help cool the hive, the problem is most beekeepers don't understand how the process works in a brood nest. It is not like an air conditioner, nor a water cooler, it is like the fan blowing air across the skin of a person that is perspiring, it cools the surface of the skin, not the air some distance above the skin.

    Bees fan to move the air over the surface of the comb, the water evaporates and cools the surface of the comb and the area of the cells. The bees have no intention of cooling the air passing in and out of the brood chamber, just as bees have no intention of heating the interior of the hive in the winter. They keep different areas of the brood at different temperatures depending on if the brood is worker or drone, and I believe they can do this with less effort over screened bottom boards than with solid bottoms.

    Have none of you had a colony melt down in the summer? Those of you that have had this happen, was the colony on a screened or solid bottom? When a colony beards, and it is the only colony that does so even when others are as strong or stronger, is it on a screened or solid bottom? Bees don't exit the hive to remove their added body heat except as a last resort, and the idea that they re-enter to help cool it is hogwash. If they could have cooled it by remaining inside they would have done so in the first place.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

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  3. #82
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    It is not like an air conditioner, nor a water cooler, it is like the fan blowing air across the skin of a person that is perspiring, it cools the surface of the skin, not the air some distance above the skin.
    If the [now] humidified air is not exhausted from the room the person is in, then I agree with the above. The effect of the fan is very transient, and only lasts as long as that room's air can hold additional humidity. If there is no outside air exchange, the cooling effect will stop when the air can not hold more moisture.

    But that is not how evaporative cooling works in a hive. The bees push the humid air outside, and draw drier air in so the process can continue, and yes, lower the air temperature below the ambient outside temperature.



    Bees don't exit the hive to remove their added body heat except as a last resort, and the idea that they re-enter to help cool it is hogwash. If they could have cooled it by remaining inside they would have done so in the first place.
    Hogwash? You are saying that bees don't react to changed hive conditions?
    Remember, my earlier comment was with regard to the beekeeper changing the position of the screen closure board and consequently introducing additional warmer outside air into the hive, in which case the bees are adapting to the changed hive conditions.

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 03-29-2017 at 09:53 AM. Reason: typo
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  4. #83
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Here is a tech sheet on an evaporative cooling system:
    http://faculty.caes.uga.edu/pthomas/...ch%20sheet.pdf

    This system is suitable for greenhouses and facilities like poultry barns, where cooling below ambient temperature is desired, but full blown air conditioning is not warranted. Note the map that estimates reasonable potential cooling in different areas of the country. Even in what is perceived as the relatively humid South, for example in Concord NC (near Charlotte) there is a potential 12 degrees evaporative cooling available.

    Yes, this a marketing piece, and of course daily conditions vary, but evaporative cooling below ambient temperature is not just a theory, it is reality. There are many hundreds of poultry barns across the South taking advantage of that process.

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 03-28-2017 at 07:25 PM. Reason: typo
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  5. #84
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    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    1,856

    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    We have dry air out here, I can get up to 30F cooler in my house with a swamp cooler.

    air flow 101....cold air sinks hot air rises, put on a SBB and all the cold air flows out the bottom

  6. #85
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    Marshall county, AL
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Even though some of you said I'm wrong, it looks like the trend is already starting again.

    Bump to the top for new beeks.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  7. #86
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    Dickson TN
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bee View Post
    Even though some of you said I'm wrong, it looks like the trend is already starting again.

    Bump to the top for new beeks.
    Yep noticed the same thing Brad.

  8. #87
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Bump....

    Screened bottom boards: great for getting bees to cluster UNDER the hive too! I'm glad I never drank that Kool Aid.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  9. #88
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bee View Post
    Bump....

    Screened bottom boards: great for getting bees to cluster UNDER the hive too! I'm glad I never drank that Kool Aid.
    Oh wait until the package queens are superseded and the new queen returns from mating flights and ends up on the bottom side of the screen.

  10. #89
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    Jun 2016
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    Pitt, NC, USA
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Let me make sure I understand before doing what I'm thinking of doing .....

    I have a ScBB on my 1 hive (from a package 3 weeks ago). Colony seems to be doing well (as of my inspection last week) but can/should I place a flat board underneath the hive? Would it help the bees having additional darkness now? Or would it be disturbing - altho' maybe a welcomed change as opposed to unwelcomed?

    I thought of using my stickyboard to make added darkness for the colony, but I see that my hive (for a reason I don't get) doesn't have the space under the "landing zone" by the entrance for placing a stickyboard there. A flat board seems to be my only option.

    Any opinions as to how to go? Thx .....

    [interesting thread, too -- good to see the various opinions, and I like to see a general consensus among the experienced people; gives me some confidence]

  11. #90
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Look, I personally think this thread has evolved to being very uninformative and snide. What it boils down to is you can close off the scBB when you want to; you have a choice. With SBB you don't. Again, it is up to you as a beekeeper to choose and experiment and educate yourself as to your particular environment as to where you are located.
    Proverbs 16:24

  12. #91
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    Look, I personally think this thread has evolved to being very uninformative and snide. What it boils down to is you can close off the scBB when you want to; you have a choice. With SBB you don't. Again, it is up to you as a beekeeper to choose and experiment and educate yourself as to your particular environment as to where you are located.
    I agree that it's turned snide and so have I about this thread. It wasn't started that way though. It was started to try and help new beekeepers, then all the ScBB fans came on the thread posting about how good beneficial they are. The problem with a new beekeeper educating themselves on what to buy is that they don't yet know enough to do that.

    So to my question. What problems has a solid bottom board ever caused that a screened bottom board would fix? Please don't say keeping the hive cooler. We had over 120 days of high temps over 90 degrees last year and my bees did just fine during the summer. They are pretty good at ventilating as needed.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  13. #92
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    Shawnee, OK
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    96

    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    If any of you want to throw away your UNUSED/NEW screened bottom boards, I want them: I will pay for the shipment if you want to toss them for free.

    Earthboy

    Here is an account of my third bee rescue this year:

    https://www.facebook.com/YSKHoney/

  14. #93
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Here is an example of a new thread (started 9 pm last night) with an 'open' screened bottom board problem that the intent of this thread is referencing:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...der-a-new-hive

    If we were to list all the similar threads here, it would be a looong list.


    Note that I make a distinction between solid bottom boards that have a 'screened' oil tray above the solid bottom, and those that have screened bottoms 'open' to the environment. For an example of a solid bottom with a screened tray, see Rusty's plans here: http://schoonerbay.net/rustysbees/ipm.html

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 04-17-2017 at 09:00 AM. Reason: clarify & add more
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  15. #94
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    If we were to list all the similar threads here, it would be a looong list.
    If a comprehensive list of similar posts was compiled the ScBB fans would still dismiss it as hogwash.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  16. #95
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    Titus County, Texas, USA
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bee View Post
    So to my question. What problems has a solid bottom board ever caused that a screened bottom board would fix?
    On March 8th had a hive swarm. Left enough queen cells to make up two nice strong splits. Both splits went to solid bottom boards and smaller cavities to allow them to better defend entrance, and help keep temp warmer due to being on the tail end of winter with some nights in the 40's. 3 weeks ago moved them to screen bottom boards due to no more cool nights and they had reached the threshold levels to handle a full deep. During the change over, I seen roughly 300 Small Hive beetles per hive. As of yesterday the oil tray underneath was full of small hive beetles, and between the two hives I only seen 2 SHB's, and killed them both fast.

    Solid bottom boards and screened bottom boards are tools. Use the right tool for the job, that's my take on it.
    Bee management is like a flowing river, persistent and ever changing.

  17. #96
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Good point about the SHB's. I have all solid bottom boards and have seen less than 20 SHB's total since I started keeping bees in 2013.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  18. #97
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bee View Post
    Good point about the SHB's. I have all solid bottom boards and have seen less than 20 SHB's total since I started keeping bees in 2013.
    I have one out yard that is bad for SHB. Trees, soft sandy soil, no full sunlight. Others in the area loss hives to SHB.

    That's great your numbers are low. The old adage still stands, all beekeeping is local. lol
    Bee management is like a flowing river, persistent and ever changing.

  19. #98
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    Seattle WA
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    A screened BB is a tool. Just like any other tool, it can be used wrong. I my area using it as a cooling tool for the hive is ridiculous. Since weather records have been kept, the temperature has only hit 100 degrees F. two or three times total. Even 90 degrees only happens a couple of times a year and most years not at all. A really hot day here is a cool fall day in Texas. Most of the people that I know around here, including myself, use them for varroa monitoring. No, they do not give spot on information about varroa levels but they do give information regarding the presence of varroa. The last 5 years of using them has shown me that I may see 1 or 2 in a weekly drop but come July - August, the rate increases to 10-15 per day and it is treatment time. If I see significantly more than the usual 1 or 2 in a week, it is time to do an alcohol wash and find out what is happening. Using the screened BB does not mean you can stop doing other forms of varroa monitoring but it gives you another tool to help keep track of them.

  20. #99
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    it can be used wrong.
    That's the problem, new beeks don't know how to use them, and when they order online, they don't have someone to tell them, then the bees abscond, or live outside on the bottom. It's hard to screw up a solid bottom board.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  21. #100
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    Default Re: ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bee View Post
    That's the problem, new beeks don't know how to use them, and when they order online, they don't have someone to tell them, then the bees abscond, or live outside on the bottom. It's hard to screw up a solid bottom board.
    That is the problem right there. There has been a thread on Bee-l regarding new beekeepers. It seems that most new beekeepers move forward with keeping bees without any education, reading, finding a mentor or Bee Club. Dudelt, above, made a good point, it's a tool, and it seems as though everyone uses them for different reasons. As a beekeeper we have a huge responsibility keeping these animals out of their "habitat" and putting them in all sorts of containers. I bet if you call Brushy Mtn. and ask about their usage of scBB you'll get a bunch of different answers as on this forum.
    Proverbs 16:24

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