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ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards

127K views 213 replies 97 participants last post by  Gray Goose 
#1 ·
Every year, EVERY year, every YEAR, there are multiple posts on beesource saying to the effect, "I installed my package of bees and they absconded."

If you feel like you must use a screened bottom board, KEEP IT CLOSED UP AT LEAST UNTIL THE HIVE IS RAISING BROOD.

I'm not going to try and pursuade you from using screened bottom boards, I'll just say I don't see a need for them. Use what you want, but keep them closed up.

If the mods do not care, I'll bump this post up every week or so in hopes of saving someone a package or two of bees.
 
#41 ·
About the third time I heard screened bottom boards described, I thought to myself, "Why not put a tray of oil (or soapy water) under that to kill anything the bees push out through the screen?" I later read of the Freeman Beetle Trap. I've only heard good things about it, and I use several. Seems to have all of the screened bottom board pluses and it seals up well at will to limit most other bad effects mentioned. The tray can be as opaque as you want, to keep the hive dark (black spray paint).

I see someone else has pointed to this example, also. Good. I still think that trap design is sound. I like the polyethylene (I think) trays used because they can seal pretty well against the base of the hive and address some of the over-ventilation issues others complain about.

Michael
 
#145 ·
I used SBB for years and found that the hives with SBB had fewer mites. Which may or may not have anything to do with the SBB. Thou I do remember a UF study that showed hives with SBB had fewer mites than Hives right next to them in the same yards. But Freeman Beetle Trap kill the heck out of SHB as well as mites that fall.
I've got them on all my hives now.
 
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#42 ·
@Shinbone,

Stick a solid board under your SBB and have the best of both worlds. I, like you, wouldn't like to give up the info gained from studying my stickies.

You might also consider putting a 2" high shim under your lowest box. I do that and find it gets my queens laying in my lowest box, and seasonal honey and pollen storage placed there, too. I did it to get the benefits of a slatted board, without the cost and the slats which I felt would interfere with the unimpeded free-fall of hive debris I wanted to study on the board. Most of my colonies make no effort to draw comb down into the 2" void into the shim; one or two will occasionalyl build a small nubbin, but rarely with any brood or stores. I just have to peek in through entrance on those colonies to make sure I don't stick my Varrox wand into it.

Enj.
 
#44 ·
I don't even own a solid bottom board. And I rarely use the IPM board (preferring to actually disturb the hive and look at the bees, so the screened bottom is always open, even in winter. Haven't used an entrance reducer either.

Haven't had any issues with absconding, from either packages or nuc installations. Just my 2 cents. Just because you don't agree with someone's keep methods doesn't mean you need to discourage others from the practice based only on your anecdotal opinion.
 
#45 ·
Just because you don't agree with someone's keep methods doesn't mean you need to discourage others from the practice based only on your anecdotal opinion.
If you have had bad experiences with a product....and have heard or read multiple reports of others having the same bad experience....you should just keep your mouth (keyboard) shut. Is that what you just said?
 
#47 ·
There are quite a few threads on Beesource, started by new beekeepers, whose new hives have open screened bottoms, and have experienced a new package abscond. Here are a couple ...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?326972-NewBee-from-South-Carolina
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?310059-New-Package-Absconded

I could link more, but those are typical. Of course, that is not scientific proof, but I suspect that kind of thing is what prompted the creation of this thread. :)

Certainly there are new packages that don't abscond with open screened bottoms, but if one does have a screened bottom - closing off the open screen at least until the hive has brood - seems like a smart move. What have you got to lose by closing off the screen?
 
#53 ·
I could link more, but those are typical. Of course, that is not scientific proof, but I suspect that kind of thing is what prompted the creation of this thread. :)
And you'd be exactly correct. I didn't post this to start a debate about screened or solid bottom boards. I hoped it wouldn't turn into one, but wishing on a shooting star rarely produces the desired effect. People can build their use up or tear their use down and I don't care either way, I'm just trying to save some poor new beekeeper the misery of going out to check on their brand new beehive and finding an empty box.

I would like to hear more about slatted racks like enjambres has mentioned. I tried searching for some information on them, but have found very little. Maybe I can get Enj. to start a new thread about them. Seems like maybe I remember Fusion Power using them too??
 
#48 ·
The whole point of this thread is to let newbees know to close up their screened bottoms when installing a new package to help avoid the problem of not doing so. Leaving the screened bottom boards open when installing packages is never a good idea. I believe Brad Bee started this thread to give good solid advice to help newbees prevent losing their bees right out of the gate. I mentor a good number of people and advise everyone to close off their screened bottom boards when installing packages. I have both screened bottom boards and solid bottom boards have had them for a good number of years. It's all a matter of preference but few people use screened bottom boards properly.
 
#49 ·
See, there's a difference in saying " hey, if you are going to use screened bottom boards with new installs, at least close the bottom with the IPM boarf and here is why...." versus how this thread was presented initially ("don't use screened bb or you will always lose your bees!!!!!").
 
#51 ·
It is possible they may not abscond if the screen is left open but it's highly likely they'll abscond. When screened bottom boards first became popular one person after another complained about bees absconding the common denominator was the screen was left open. Obviously you didn't comprehend the point of this thread. You may consider rereading Brad Bee's original post and maybe you'll understand his well meaning intent.
 
#50 ·
I use screened with a corrugated plastic tray that completely closes off the bottom of the hive. Also use a slatted rack. I keep a little lime on the tray to kill the beetles and dump it off and grease it up when I want to monitor for mites. Really never leave the bottom open.
 
#52 ·
I can tell you from experience that Bradbee gave good solid advice! I wish someone had told me to close up the bottom boards 10 years ago when I started. Maybe I would still have the 10 packages that absconded 2 days after installation. Or not? Who knows? :banana:
 
#54 ·
My memory is not perfect, but last year members of one of the bee associations to which I belong installed around 125 packages last spring. About 17 packages absconded, and they were about evenly divided between hives with solid bottom boards and those with screened.

I doubt the open screen bottoms are the only cause of packages absconding, but given my choice I would install a package with the screened bottom closed. Small colonies do better in small hives with small entrances, unless the outside temperature is very warm. Early spring temperature is usually cool enough to require the beekeeper to "baby" a 2 or 3 pound package.

With the problem wide spread as it appears to be, when installing packages I would take the precaution of placing a queen excluder under the brood chamber to prevent the queen from having free passage out of the hive. I would keep the excluder on the hive until the queen has several frames of unsealed brood. If brood from other colonies is to be had, I would add a frame of unsealed larvae when installing and 10 days later a frame of emerging brood.

I use screened bottom boards on all of my colonies, including my nucs. I never close the screen, even on the nucs. Granted, my winters are mild compared to northern states, but are no milder than winters in southern Missouri, Tennessee or other areas along Latitude 36. My winter losses are reasonable, if I have prepared properly. My style of beekeeping includes the use of powdered sugar dusting, which requires open bottom boards. I also see evidence that natural mite fall allows many viable mites to fall out of the colony. Fully one out of 5 or 6 are alive and mobile on the closure board when I do natural mite fall counts.

I am pro open mesh bottom boards because of the benefits I derive from their use. Others whose beekeeping style is such that they receive no benefits from their use would not like them, I can understand that. When I recommend a procedure or beekeeping method to a new beekeeper I do so because I have found it to work under my conditions. I do not know all of the conditions in other areas of the U. S., and I can't read minds, I can only tell what works for me. Also, I will have tried the item or procedure, or I will say that I have not tried what I am recommending.
 
#56 ·
#57 ·
The only two bottom board designs I make now. (And I've tried several.)

-Fully screened with FRP slide in, which I don't remove no matter what time of year.

Wood Hardwood Lumber Plywood Plank


Wood Table Hardwood Rectangle Furniture


And solid, sloped.

I made some of my first sloped ones with a small screened area in front, but found they drain just fine without it. Your options for ventilating from the bottom are eliminated if you don't use some kind of screen though.

Wood Table Sandpit Furniture Plywood


Wood Hardwood Plywood Table Floor


I overwinter some really large colonies that can create an enormous amount of condensation at times and my climate is exceptionally wet. These are the only two designs I've found that have excellent drainage without being drafty.
Sometimes I still have to slightly ventilate from the bottom to control condensation, along with top entrances.

These give me the options I need to keep colonies dry overwinter and no disgusting bottom boards to clean up in spring.
 
#58 · (Edited)
What I also like about the sloped ones are the bees have some room to congregate when populations are at their highest.
With that room underneath I get some comb built, but it's not excessive and in fall or winter is abandoned, brittle and easy to knock off with my hive tool when I tip the hive.

Here you see an entire season of use- from April - December. Never cleaned until I tipped to check for mite drop after December OAV treatment.

Bee Honeybee Insect Membrane-winged insect Beehive


In a few I slipped in a piece of white cardboard to to catch mite drop. That was easy too and would eliminate draftiness in winter if colony did not need the bottom vent.

Wood Table Furniture Plywood




I do seal the plywood and calk around the edges to keep moisture from degrading the ends.

Below was the prototype I used for a few years before making the sloped version. Good, but the flat bottom still could collect a lot of grunge and moisture overwinter.


(I give them room to congregate below frames on the bottom board in summer, and on top the hive in winter)

Honeybee Bee Beehive Insect Membrane-winged insect
 
#59 ·
I had a hive up at my mountain yard that was light as a feather when I moved them to new benches in January. I remember last year it was in the same shape, very light but recovered well on it's own.
I had some warm weather to check it about a month later, and was horrified to see the bottom was fully screened and WIDE open. It had just gone through some harsh weather and it was amazing it was still in decent shape. But the colony was ( triple deep) as far away from the bottom as they could get and on the edge of starvation. Unlike the other colonies in that location that were honeybound for the most part. It's not that much colder than my home yard, but the wind comes directly off Mt. Rainier and it has a real bite to it, even on sunny days.

I felt bad, this hive had been like this and struggled for 2 years because of this oversight on my part.





A few years ago, I ran solid bottom boards on one bench and fully screened and open bottom boards on a bench right next to it. 5 hives on each bench.

All hives were made in May with 5 deep frames and a capped queen cell at the exact some time. All hives were in double deeps by late summer.

I ran them all season and was shocked late summer to find the hives with screened fully open bottoms were less than half the weight of the hives on solid bottoms.
Hives in solid bottoms had colonies that settled in the bottom box with honey overhead going into winter. Hives with open screened bottoms settled mostly in the top box, with a majority of fall feed stored in available empty comb below the colony. Full opened screened bottom hives also had a larger mite count.
All overwintered well, but closed the screened up as soon as I saw the difference late summer.

Chicken coop Agriculture


And that is what I know about bottom boards:rolleyes:
 
#62 ·
#65 ·
Ok so now I am paranoid about having a screened bottom board...just installed the nuc on Saturday and so far they seem to be doing well. It was recommended to me to use a screened board for the FL heat (already in the mid 80's here) Now I wish I had found this thread a week ago.

Today is the day we do our first hive inspection so maybe I will go ahead and put the solid board back in. (I'm going to be a worried mess til we get out there today and make sure it's all good).
 
#67 ·
While I agree with the original post--that during brood-rearing wooden bottoms are better to maintain the ambient temp--I would not throw away the SBB's yet. If your SBB's are fashioned in such a way that you cannot close/block it, as most of my home-made ones are (to recycle the old wooden bottom boards), use a cardboard and place it under the SBB's to block the draft. When the temperature gets hot, usually sooner than you think, just remove the cardboard for better ventilation.

Earthboy

https://www.facebook.com/YSKHoney/
 
#69 ·
It doesn't matter how much "ventilation" you provide in hot weather - ventilation can NEVER reduce the hive temperature below the ambient air temperature. Since bees want their brood area temperature at 93-94 degrees F 24/7, and if its 99 F, outside, "ventilation" means that there will be a lot of 99 degree air flowing through the hive.

If instead, you allowed the bees to manage the ventilation, they would move adequate outside air through the hive to match/utilize the water droplets they were bringing into the hive to create evaporative cooling. Properly managed, evaporative cooling can reduce the air temperature inside a hive BELOW the ambient air temperature outside. Ventilation can never achieve that.

The links below are not perfect references, but a place to start for more info on evaporative cooling:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4601407?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
https://books.google.com/books?id=3...#v=onepage&q=evaporative cooling hive&f=false
 
#71 ·
It doesn't matter how much "ventilation" you provide in hot weather - ventilation can NEVER reduce the hive temperature below the ambient air temperature. Since bees want their brood area temperature at 93-94 degrees F 24/7, and if its 99 F, outside, "ventilation" means that there will be a lot of 99 degree air flowing through the hive.

If instead, you allowed the bees to manage the ventilation, they would move adequate outside air through the hive to match/utilize the water droplets they were bringing into the hive to create evaporative cooling. Properly managed, evaporative cooling can reduce the air temperature inside a hive BELOW the ambient air temperature outside. Ventilation can never achieve that.
Graham, there you go using that logic crap again. Being able to say it works better because "I" said so sounds so much better in most peoples minds and their arguments. :D
 
#73 ·
"It doesn't matter how much "ventilation" you provide in hot weather - ventilation can NEVER reduce the hive temperature below the ambient air temperature. Since bees want their brood area temperature at 93-94 degrees F 24/7, and if its 99 F, outside, "ventilation" means that there will be a lot of 99 degree air flowing through the hive."

On a hot day when the bees on the wooden bottom are busy fanning, counter the number of them at the entrance, and then replace the wooden bottom with a screened one. Then counter the number of the fanning bees. Until you do this "scientific experiment," please spare me your "science."

Dr. Kim
 
#74 ·
On a hot day when the bees on the wooden bottom are busy fanning, counter the number of them at the entrance, and then replace the wooden bottom with a screened one. Then counter the number of the fanning bees. Until you do this "scientific experiment," please spare me your "science."

Dr. Kim
Professor, please explain what your "scientific experiment" proves?
 
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