Genetic Diversity
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1

    Default Genetic Diversity

    I am ordering Queens from multiple sources this year to increase the diversity in my apiary. I am hoping to get some from Michael Palmer and am on the list at Ferguson Apiaries for some Buckfast Queens. I would like to hear from anyone with experience with queens from these breeders. How have these queens performed? Any problems?
    Thanks

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,063

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Ferguson queens for me have been typical Buckfast. They winter with small colonies and wait until late spring to start buildup. I won't know how they do in a flow until after this spring. I expect them to perform reasonably well given the background.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  4. #3

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Ferguson queens for me have been typical Buckfast. They winter with small colonies and wait until late spring to start buildup. I won't know how they do in a flow until after this spring. I expect them to perform reasonably well given the background.
    Good to know, please keep me updated on the performance and how you would compare to others that you may have.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Yuba County, California, USA
    Posts
    6,572

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    I have a Michael Palmer queen as well as a couple daughters from her that have been the best performers in my beeyard last year. More foraging, more honey stored, very calm bees. Good over winter and spring build up so far. I treated in spring last year up to early summer, but not in late summer or fall, and they are some of the best in the beeyard at the moment.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Rutherford Co. NC
    Posts
    549

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Some silly questions from a newbie.

    Why is it good that a queen would wait until late spring to build up. Is this late in.The season or calendar year, that is , is it proportional to the season for a given area?

    How is small cluster size better. Is.It that they are small and still survive? It is good because they need fewer stores?

    I sort of thought a larger colony going into winter was more likely to generate enough.heat to survive.

    Would the Buckfast trait be more advantageous to a northern or southern climate?

  7. #6
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Knox, Pa. USA
    Posts
    5,400

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    I have one apiary that has Carniolan's they winter with small clusters Very small compared to Italians. But they build like gang busters come spring. They require less food and can manage their temperature better.

    I have also had Italians go into winter with a huge cluster and come out with a small one that struggles through most of the summer to achieve winter strength. Enough heat is not all the bees need ample food is important, and the more mouths to feed the greater stores are needed.
    However the old reliable Italians still produce the greatest amount of honey for my $$

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Crown Point, NY, USA
    Posts
    594

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Here's an example of one Palmer queen I overwintered on 10 mini frames. She built up to 50 mini combs I was using here for a breeder using nicot system to work some bugs out of my methods. Thanks Velbert Williams you have some great info on nicot. This colony was so prolific that it produced 3 solid splits and produce 90 pounds of surplus honey. The trick was extracting those mini combs....

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    New Hampshire, USA
    Posts
    89

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    I purchased queens for people in our local bee club from Mike Palmer ( Thank you Michael ). Everyone who used his queens had nothing but rave reviews. I'm hoping to increase this spring by breeding from his stock.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,063

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Why is it good that a queen would wait until late spring to build up. Is this late in the season or calendar year, that is , is it proportional to the season for a given area?

    How is small cluster size better. Is it that they are small and still survive? Is it good because they need fewer stores?

    I sort of thought a larger colony going into winter was more likely to generate enough heat to survive.

    Would the Buckfast traits be more advantageous to a northern or southern climate?
    1. Buildup started in late winter/early spring is more likely to hit the main flow at maximum colony strength. This tends to reduce honey consumption over winter, increase surplus honey production, and reduce swarming.

    2. A small healthy colony uses less stores over winter. It can be a liability in northern climates where larger clusters tend to winter better. It is a huge advantage in my climate because I can winter a colony on about 10 pounds of honey followed by using another 25 pounds in the spring buildup. The optimum size cluster in this area is roughly the size of a soccer ball when outside temps are around 40 degrees. In extreme cold, they will pack down to about 6 or 7 inches diameter.

    3. Large colonies are important for wintering in northern climates and at the time of the main flow. I've had Buckfast colonies with 18 frames of brood just before the spring flow. This results in colonies that produce 5 to 7 supers of honey as compared to the general average of 2 or 3.

    4. Buckfast are generally adapted doing pretty well in northern climates and in southern. One common complaint with Buckfast from Ferguson is that they originated from Brandstrup in Denmark. They have been in a northern climate long enough that they are no longer as well adapted to high temperature regions such as the deep Southeastern U.S. This is not an issue for me as I plan on raising queens and mating them to my mite resistant bees in an effort to combine the better traits of Buckfast with mite resistance. As you may guess, this will be a long term breeding effort.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  11. #10

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Fusion, how did your bees perform this season? Are you happy with the Buckfast?

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Shickshinny, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,614

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Can anyone explain how long the favorable traits from these quality queens will last once the traits are pasted on to the daughters from swarming and or splits and then you throw in the local drone gene pool , are the good traits going to be around long enough to see a big difference in the beeyard . Seems like the good genes would get watered down pretty quick with poor drone genes or does the queen genes tend to hold on longer than the poor genes from the drone .

  13. #12

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by laketrout View Post
    Can anyone explain how long the favorable traits from these quality queens will last once the traits are pasted on to the daughters from swarming and or splits and then you throw in the local drone gene pool , are the good traits going to be around long enough to see a big difference in the beeyard . Seems like the good genes would get watered down pretty quick with poor drone genes or does the queen genes tend to hold on longer than the poor genes from the drone .
    Im not certain that I follow. What drone genes are you referring to?

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    4,579

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuttingedgelandinc View Post
    Im not certain that I follow. What drone genes are you referring to?
    That's easy. Every time the queen reproduces, her traits are mingled with those of the local drone population. After several queen reproduction cycles, the original genetic material has been diluted to the point that the sought after traits no longer exist. This is the reason breeders use II to produce breeder queens. No gene pool dilution. I have been told that the granddaughters are the last to exibit the selected traits so about two cycles. Now if your yard is populated with drones that also have the same traits, you can get many more cycles. But at some point local genetics will interfere.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  15. #14

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    That's easy. Every time the queen reproduces, her traits are mingled with those of the local drone population. After several queen reproduction cycles, the original genetic material has been diluted to the point that the sought after traits no longer exist. This is the reason breeders use II to produce breeder queens. No gene pool dilution. I have been told that the granddaughters are the last to exibit the selected traits so about two cycles. Now if your yard is populated with drones that also have the same traits, you can get many more cycles. But at some point local genetics will interfere.
    We flood our yards with the genetics that we like. Next season, I am moving all of my Buckfast colonies to a second yard about 6 miles away. At my home I will keep my local Mutts that were bred by a friend. I made a bunch of daughters from his stock and they perform very well for me. My ideas are that I will separate these two and put drone colonies in each location. That should somewhat control the genetics in each yard as both locations are pretty isolated with no local beeks around.

  16. #15

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Ferguson queens for me have been typical Buckfast. They winter with small colonies and wait until late spring to start buildup. I won't know how they do in a flow until after this spring. I expect them to perform reasonably well given the background.
    You sure have strange Buckfast strains in US! I would have said that they do not winter with small colonies. Or what is small?


    ruokinnan loppu.jpg

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    lafargeville ny usa
    Posts
    2,278

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    keeping the genes in different yards sounds good , this is not how it works. the big BUT is, virgin queens do not mate any or at most a tiny bit with drones from their own colony or their own yard. the young queen will mate with drones from over 3/4 mile away or more. do some more research on queen breeding, dr. lawrence connor is the best author to read on this. if you want to flood an area with drones you need to control most of the drones over a few thousand acres, that is miles all the way around...

  18. #17

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by mathesonequip View Post
    keeping the genes in different yards sounds good , this is not how it works. the big BUT is, virgin queens do not mate any or at most a tiny bit with drones from their own colony or their own yard. the young queen will mate with drones from over 3/4 mile away or more. do some more research on queen breeding, dr. lawrence connor is the best author to read on this. if you want to flood an area with drones you need to control most of the drones over a few thousand acres, that is miles all the way around...
    From what I understand, setting up drone colonies surrounding a yard would flood that area with the drones that you want to have your virgins mate with. If there is a DCA nearby, those drones will find their way. Having a DCA flooded with your desired drones would increase the likelihood of virgins mating with them. Is it a guarantee, of course not. I know that our local queen Breeder does this to somewhat control mating.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,922

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    >You sure have strange Buckfast strains in US! I would have said that they do not winter with small colonies. Or what is small?

    Back when I had Buckfast I would have said smaller than Italians and larger than Carniolans or Caucasians or Russians.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  20. #19

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >You sure have strange Buckfast strains in US! I would have said that they do not winter with small colonies. Or what is small?

    Back when I had Buckfast I would have said smaller than Italians and larger than Carniolans or Caucasians or Russians.
    Michael, what are your feelings on setting up drone colonies to try and control mating within your area? Is this plausible?

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,922

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    >Michael, what are your feelings on setting up drone colonies to “try” and control mating within your area? Is this plausible?

    Not for me. Besides the "wild" bees are the drones I want.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •