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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducatidom View Post
    So it is painfully obvious you guys disagree on stuff, lol.

    Point of the thread was to explore the use of alternative yeasts(strong ale,saisson, other non-wine yeasts), and so far the concensus is yes. The yes includes a fair bit of extra work and more advanced technique, so not as noob friendly.
    Yes, he and I disagree... I am not trying to bash him or anyone but he says things and has no reference backing it. I at least include links and reference to what I am saying. It is for the individual to determine if he wants to include what I have to say based on verifiable evidence. Yes, it is advantageous to use other yeasts for mead and some do require more attention and care but the results are very positive. I hope you try some of this as I have! I have shared my meads with many where I live and the consensus is that
    I should go commercial. I am not so sure myself but who knows Happy fermenting!!

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenbears View Post
    As usual you are spewing off things you once again do not understand what you are talking about. Listen! Sach or SAC is a high alcohol mead, Sacking is the technique used to get it there. This Statement "Dr. Denard has shown you can sack a mead by step feeding honey as well" This would be one of the methods I was referring to! As unless one uses a yeast that has a high alcohol tolerance the yeast will Die before it reaches the high alcohol. Now tell me this Why does someone come to a beekeeping site simply to spew poor mead making techniques in a sub category that only has a few members. Funny how you started off when you came here saying you made mead by starting wit SG of 1.175 to 1.250 added 13% alcohol tolerance yeast and away we go. Then when I called you on it and stated it could not be done without sacking and even then could not achieve the ABV you were proclaiming. Now you have all of a sudden become a sac expert.
    I am a beekeeper who also happens to make mead! I offer my experiences with my fellow beekeepers so they can get started in making mead. I do so with sound advice and time tested techniques in a manner that makes success very attainable. I do not offer them complicated, or questionable methods that will surly result in problems for beginners. With all the sites dedicated to wine and mead making exclusively. Why is it You who does not appear to be a beekeeper as you have never posted in any bee related forums here on BEE source. join a Bee forum and go to a sub category to promote poor mead making and half baked ideology? I mean ain't this a rather small pond for a big fish such as yourself.
    LOL.... in all of that drivel you still failed to show where you get your facts! You say I claimed a SG of 1.250....... LOL...... more made up stuff from you... as I never said that! I did say 1.175 though! I also never claimed to be an expert of any kind though I did say that I have been doing this since 1986 which does indicate that I should know what I am doing. My advice is sound just as some of yours. I have offered no questionable advice to complicated for beginners and have even backed my advice with reference data/links. It's ok for you to question me but heaven forbid someone question you! For someone to grow and learn they need to practice and think out of the box, something you refuse to do. Instead of embracing new ideas you belittle and degrade those who offer them as if you are the author of The Complete Mead Maker! How did I come to be a member here? I research mead, honey and bee keeping. In the process I found this forum. I chose to become a member because I wanted to read about bee keeping. Why you ask, because I want to keep bees..... I just have to convince my wife first! My poor mead making and half baked ideology has received many good reviews from vintners, brewers, mazers and friends, one of which is a wine snob who is a distributor here in southern Colorado. You can say whatever you like about me or the advice I give but at least my advice can be referenced.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    I will be trying alternative yeasts, but not quite yet. As they will take more care and technique I want to get a few batches under my belt. I am getting ready to bottle my first ever this week, after a few successful ferments with the more traditional wine yeasts I will be more comfortable branching out.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    You want simple? Choose EC-1118 and put 12 lbs of honey and a half pound of bee pollen in a brewing bucket and put an aquarium aereator and an air stone on it for three days at close to 70F. Transfer to a carboy and set in the dark above 65F. Whenever the air lock quits bubbling, check SG and add another pound of honey if the SG is below 1. If above 1, wait until it goes below and add another pound of honey. You will breed the hardiest yeast in the environment with high alcohol tolerance. Not hard to get 22% alcohol. I did it by accident the first time by using EC 1118 instead of the 71b the recipe called for. It took nearly two years to become drinkable but now it is exquisite. Expect any high alcohol mead to take quite a long time to become fit to drink. Not a new and technically SOOOO advanced method but it works fine. But you must be desperate if you need all that panty remover.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Not necessarily looking to create a high ABV, but to use the yeast as a natural "flavor". Those who brew beer will understand, as yeast strains for beer/ale are regarded for flavor profile as well as ABV. Most of the wine yeasts are/were developed to impart little change to the flavor profile of the must.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    This is not the definition of a Sacked mead, this is just made up and misinformation! I would like to see the source that is being quoted here because I have never read it. Everything I have read defines a Sacked mead like this; Sack – that’s the name of a stronger mead, usually sweet, made with more honey than is typically used...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenbears
    As usual you are spewing off things you once again do not understand what you are talking about. Listen! Sach or SAC is a high alcohol mead, Sacking is the technique used to get it there. This Statement "Dr. Denard has shown you can sack a mead by step feeding honey as well"...
    Actually, Gentlemen, according to my 1980 edition of "Making Mead" by Dr. Roger A. Morse, who was a moderately eminent Professor of Apiculture at Cornell from 1957 until his retirement, he defines 'sack mead' simply as "sweet honey wine".

    I can't quite remember exactly where I read it, perhaps in some one or another of Sir Kenelme Digbie's writings from the 1600s, but I seem to recall a description of making mead in an actual sack...I think there was something about a chicken too, but it escapes me at the moment.

    There is also Bodog Beck's 1938 book "Honey and Health", in which he relates something of a tale of some 16- or 1700s reknowned mead-maker's product being likened to 'Canary Sack', a wine popular in Shakespeare's time.

    Both of the above are possible and perhaps plausible considerations for the origin of the term.

    At any rate, I think we can reasonably agree that a 'sack mead' is a very sweet mead, which can be arrived at by -either- starting at a very high gravity which exceeds the capability of the yeast to fully ferment, or by 'step-feeding' which accomplishes the same thing though perhaps with a higher alcohol content. 'Step-feeding' can create the higher alcohol content because of the variability of the yeast- in the initial ferment nearly all of the yeast are working, as the alcohol content increases some of those yeasts quit, leaving those with a higher tolerance. The gradual introduction of new food and oxygen allows some reproduction of more tolerant yeasts until their maximum limit is reached and no more fermentation occurs. Back in the good old days when I used to frequent the usenet groups rec.crafts.brewing and rec.crafts.meadmaking I think we called that 'blasting'.

    So, a 'sack' mead can have a somewhat higher alcohol content, or a much higher alcohol content depending on the type of yeast and the process used, but it -must- be sweet.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
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  8. #27
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducatidom View Post
    Not necessarily looking to create a high ABV, but to use the yeast as a natural "flavor". Those who brew beer will understand, as yeast strains for beer/ale are regarded for flavor profile as well as ABV. Most of the wine yeasts are/were developed to impart little change to the flavor profile of the must.
    A straight mead should have a bright but delicate nose, It's legs should be clear and well defined, it should fall upon the tongue lightly and excite the pallet. The finish should linger with notes of the honey's Varity. Leaving the drinker desiring another sip or glass. Although the yeast can and does play a role in bringing out the flavor profile of the mead. How one ferments the must can play a greater role. We are not looking to define the mead by it's bold coarseness as we do with ales or bears. but rather it's delicate subtleties, leaving one with a firm impression of the honey verities. I make a lot of Bochet, Bochetomel, Metheglin, and Melomels as well as other styles of Mead. often when doing so the flavor of the individual honey is lost or greatly diminished in the attempt to leave them with the desired flavor. Yes it always plays a role But how much depends on the process. The same is true of straight mead. The flavor profile can certainly be impacted by the yeast. However how we craft ur ferment can play a greater role. Avoiding things that can lead to off flavors is far more important. Such as Sanitation, of equipment, Ample Oxygenation at the onset of the ferment, maintaining a slow lower temperature ferment, proper yeast nutrition, Not stepping nutrients in too late in the ferment. Preventing oxidation late in the ferment of during the aging process, Not allowing wild yeast to play ANY role in the ferment. All these things should be mastered before worrying about experimenting with yeasts. For one to know if they are achieving the most from their meads they first must know what makes a quality mead. I have people say they do not boil their water or use purified water because honey is antiseptic. Which is true right up until you add that honey to the water. Then all bets are off! They claim they have done it that way for years and have never had a bad batch. How do they know if they have never followed proven methods that produce a proper mead. So many things can have an impact on the quality of a mead. Does it mean they are undrinkable. Certainly not! But they may very well have been a lot better had these measures been followed.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Tenbears, your above post is a direct reflection of why I am not willing to experiment with other yeasts at this point. I have not sampled a huge variety of commercial or homemade meads. So until I have more experience with "traditional" wine yeast ferments it does not seem, to me at least, to be beneficial to branch out. I am quite sure I will at some point in the future though......

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BadBeeKeeper View Post
    Actually, Gentlemen, according to my 1980 edition of "Making Mead" by Dr. Roger A. Morse, who was a moderately eminent Professor of Apiculture at Cornell from 1957 until his retirement, he defines 'sack mead' simply as "sweet honey wine".

    I can't quite remember exactly where I read it, perhaps in some one or another of Sir Kenelme Digbie's writings from the 1600s, but I seem to recall a description of making mead in an actual sack...I think there was something about a chicken too, but it escapes me at the moment.

    There is also Bodog Beck's 1938 book "Honey and Health", in which he relates something of a tale of some 16- or 1700s reknowned mead-maker's product being likened to 'Canary Sack', a wine popular in Shakespeare's time.

    Both of the above are possible and perhaps plausible considerations for the origin of the term.

    At any rate, I think we can reasonably agree that a 'sack mead' is a very sweet mead, which can be arrived at by -either- starting at a very high gravity which exceeds the capability of the yeast to fully ferment, or by 'step-feeding' which accomplishes the same thing though perhaps with a higher alcohol content. 'Step-feeding' can create the higher alcohol content because of the variability of the yeast- in the initial ferment nearly all of the yeast are working, as the alcohol content increases some of those yeasts quit, leaving those with a higher tolerance. The gradual introduction of new food and oxygen allows some reproduction of more tolerant yeasts until their maximum limit is reached and no more fermentation occurs. Back in the good old days when I used to frequent the usenet groups rec.crafts.brewing and rec.crafts.meadmaking I think we called that 'blasting'.

    So, a 'sack' mead can have a somewhat higher alcohol content, or a much higher alcohol content depending on the type of yeast and the process used, but it -must- be sweet.
    I agree, has to be sweet though I have read about dry sack meads. I cant even imagine that but hey someone apparently has tried it. I have read some of what you quoted, the Digbie stuff was interesting. Thanks!

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenbears View Post
    A straight mead should have a bright but delicate nose, It's legs should be clear and well defined, it should fall upon the tongue lightly and excite the pallet. The finish should linger with notes of the honey's Varity. Leaving the drinker desiring another sip or glass. Although the yeast can and does play a role in bringing out the flavor profile of the mead. How one ferments the must can play a greater role. We are not looking to define the mead by it's bold coarseness as we do with ales or bears. but rather it's delicate subtleties, leaving one with a firm impression of the honey verities. I make a lot of Bochet, Bochetomel, Metheglin, and Melomels as well as other styles of Mead. often when doing so the flavor of the individual honey is lost or greatly diminished in the attempt to leave them with the desired flavor. Yes it always plays a role But how much depends on the process. The same is true of straight mead. The flavor profile can certainly be impacted by the yeast. However how we craft ur ferment can play a greater role. Avoiding things that can lead to off flavors is far more important. Such as Sanitation, of equipment, Ample Oxygenation at the onset of the ferment, maintaining a slow lower temperature ferment, proper yeast nutrition, Not stepping nutrients in too late in the ferment. Preventing oxidation late in the ferment of during the aging process, Not allowing wild yeast to play ANY role in the ferment. All these things should be mastered before worrying about experimenting with yeasts. For one to know if they are achieving the most from their meads they first must know what makes a quality mead. I have people say they do not boil their water or use purified water because honey is antiseptic. Which is true right up until you add that honey to the water. Then all bets are off! They claim they have done it that way for years and have never had a bad batch. How do they know if they have never followed proven methods that produce a proper mead. So many things can have an impact on the quality of a mead. Does it mean they are undrinkable. Certainly not! But they may very well have been a lot better had these measures been followed.
    This I can relate to and I agree!

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducatidom View Post
    I will be trying alternative yeasts, but not quite yet. As they will take more care and technique I want to get a few batches under my belt. I am getting ready to bottle my first ever this week, after a few successful ferments with the more traditional wine yeasts I will be more comfortable branching out.
    I actually did not experiment much and used Lalvin yeast exclusively for many years. I made good meads that many have enjoyed but the last few years I have been digging pretty deep into mead trying to learn as much as I can. That is how I came across Dr. Denard and his experiments. I experimented with gallon batches but now my average batch is five gallons. I share a lot of my mead and drink my fare share as well, so I make in the neighborhood of 50 gallons a year. My wife can't drink wine and she hates beer so she drinks a lot of my mead as well. If you can afford it experiment with small batches while keeping your larger ones for what you are comfortable with. I have made several small batches of Sima trying to get the carbonation just right and have enjoyed drinking the experiments! I have a gruit bottled and waiting tasting that I made using Dr. Denards advice........ cant wait! The point I am making is that this is an enjoyable and delicious hobby so don't hold back!

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    LOL.... in all of that drivel you still failed to show where you get your facts! You say I claimed a SG of 1.250....... LOL...... more made up stuff from you... as I never said that! I did say 1.175 though! I also never claimed to be an expert of any kind though I did say that I have been doing this since 1986 which does indicate that I should know what I am doing. My advice is sound just as some of yours. I have offered no questionable advice to complicated for beginners and have even backed my advice with reference data/links. It's ok for you to question me but heaven forbid someone question you! For someone to grow and learn they need to practice and think out of the box, something you refuse to do. Instead of embracing new ideas you belittle and degrade those who offer them as if you are the author of The Complete Mead Maker! How did I come to be a member here? I research mead, honey and bee keeping. In the process I found this forum. I chose to become a member because I wanted to read about bee keeping. Why you ask, because I want to keep bees..... I just have to convince my wife first! My poor mead making and half baked ideology has received many good reviews from vintners, brewers, mazers and friends, one of which is a wine snob who is a distributor here in southern Colorado. You can say whatever you like about me or the advice I give but at least my advice can be referenced.
    Realy

    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    Completely agree, everyone's palate is unique though many do prefer dry. I on the other hand can't stand dry wine or mead and thoroughly enjoy all those sweet yummy calories My current batch, which is still fermenting started 1.250 it was so high it was clean off the hydrometer, it took 2 days to reach 1.170!!! .... I used 4 gallons Reisling grape juice and 1.5 gallons of wildflower honey and my 3 day Wyeast starter giving me 6 gallons of yummy goodness.... can't wait! I am mostly through my last batch which was a Muscot and Clover mix at 20% ABV ... YUMMY!!
    "one of which is a wine snob who is a distributor here in southern Colorado".

    Reference please Name and phone number will do!

    here is mine.
    Making Mead: A Complete Guide to the Making of Sweet and Dry Mead
    Make Mead Like a Viking
    The Complete Meadmaker : Home Production of Honey Wine
    Making Your Own Mead: by Peter Duncan and Bryan Acton
    The Secret Art of Mead Making by Will Kalif
    Making Mead (Honey Wine): History, Recipes, Methods and Equipment by Roger a Morse (better known for his beekeeping Books)
    Making Mead: A Complete Guide to the Making of Sweet and Dry Mead, Melomel, Metheglin, Hippocras, Pyment and Cyser by Bryan Acton
    Making Wild Wines & Meads by Midwest Homebrewing and Winemaking
    Making Mead the art and science.
    and the countless hundreds of library books on classic techniques Anchent fermentation and any other topic which may contain mead and or wine making between 1963 to present.

    OH! Read them everything I have said is in there. Unlike you I read before I claim I know NOT AFTER! I was making Mead long before it was popular, and Long before books were available exclusively on wine and mead making! When research was gathering information from library and science books and piecing it together. BUT, I am not here to tout my credentials, But rather help those interested in making a quality mead without inciting difficulties for them.
    Last edited by Tenbears; 02-07-2017 at 03:22 AM.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    CR, I am only running 1 gallon batches at present. Both for cider and mead. I am just reentering the brewing world and am trying to stay fairly simple. I mostly drink cider these days so that is where I started up again. Then caught a bunch of articles and blogs etc... that also had info on mead, that led me to my batch of cyser that I posted on here. Another reason for the small batches is that I am pretty much the only one drinking it, so I can tweak recipes/change yeasts quicker, a 5 gallon batch would leave me with too much drinking to do in between batches!

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    I actually did not experiment much and used Lalvin yeast exclusively for many years...I have made several small batches of Sima trying to get the carbonation just right and have enjoyed drinking the experiments!...
    For carbonated, I use Red Star champagne yeast. Very dry, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducatidom
    ...a 5 gallon batch would leave me with too much drinking to do in between batches!
    Too much drinking? Bite your tongue, there is no such thing!
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BadBeeKeeper View Post
    For carbonated, I use Red Star champagne yeast. Very dry, of course.
    I have been using ec 1118 for my sima experiments. The traditional recipe calls for bread yeast but I have A LOT of ec 1118 on hand so I use it. It also calls for only 12 hours of fermentation then bottling with some sugar and raisins. When the raisins float the drink is ready ...... supposedly but that method over carbonates and I loose about a quarter of my bottle when opened. So I have been timing after bottling to see just how long I can leave them before cold crashing them. These experiments have been very tasty with a low ABV carbonated lemonade

    Quote Originally Posted by BadBeeKeeper View Post
    Too much drinking? Bite your tongue, there is no such thing!
    Exactly, no such thing

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    I have been using ec 1118 for my sima experiments. The traditional recipe calls for bread yeast but I have A LOT of ec 1118 on hand so I use it. It also calls for only 12 hours of fermentation then bottling with some sugar and raisins. When the raisins float the drink is ready ...... supposedly but that method over carbonates and I loose about a quarter of my bottle when opened. So I have been timing after bottling to see just how long I can leave them before cold crashing them. These experiments have been very tasty with a low ABV carbonated lemonade
    Ack, I would not do that, sounds like a good recipe for bottle-bombs. I control the ABV with the starting gravity, ferment to completion then prime with a measured amount of honey just like I would do for ale. The champagne yeast ensures that tolerance is not exceeded (as long as the OG is low enough) and enough yeast remain to carbonate.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    I have been using ec 1118 for my sima experiments. The traditional recipe calls for bread yeast but I have A LOT of ec 1118 on hand so I use it. It also calls for only 12 hours of fermentation then bottling with some sugar and raisins. When the raisins float the drink is ready ...... supposedly but that method over carbonates and I loose about a quarter of my bottle when opened. So I have been timing after bottling to see just how long I can leave them before cold crashing them. These experiments have been very tasty with a low ABV carbonated lemonade


    Exactly, no such thing
    Bad techniques that will simply result in problems for the one following them are one thing, If you follow advice and it ruins your mead oh well. But this kind of stuff is dangerous. am I the only one who see it? That's crazy talk!

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    That which I described is the technique used for many many years in Finland! You can call it what ever you want, makes no difference to me!
    Last edited by Ben Brewcat; 02-10-2017 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Moderator hammer

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    That which I described is the technique used for many many years in Finland! You can call it what ever you want, makes no difference to me! It's older than you and your opinion means nothing. This is why we disagree, you with your doctorate are not as informed as you should be! Please stop talking to me, you and your opinion are meaningless.....
    I tried that weeks ago! But if you for one minute think I am going to allow you to quote me and make demeaning, insulting remarks and let it go you are sadly mistaken. When you stop promoting poor and now dangerous methodology I will say nothing about your antics. BTW Blood letting was once considered Medicine!

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Alcohol Tolerance?

    Personal attacks are NOT tolerated nor welcome on Beesource: differences of opinion may be expressed as such, but keep it civil.
    Bees, brews and fun
    in Lyons, CO

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