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Alcohol Tolerance?

21K views 47 replies 8 participants last post by  ColoradoRaptor 
#1 ·
Discussion of this being taken from the De-gassing thread.....

I know that yeast strains are tested by the various labs/manufacturers, who then publish their result. But is this really gospel?

Are these "real world" tests i.e.... do they actually brew beverages? Do they run tests with various ingredients, temperatures, nutrient additions and other techniques used by brewers? What is the rate of mutation/adaptation of yeast?

I have done some basic brewing in the past, and just recently taken up again. Lots of things changed in the years between.

I appreciate any/all thoughts anyone wants to share, and hope this doesn't end up as an argument starter.........
 
#2 ·
This came about because of the BOMM recipes which claim that if yeast is properly fed under the optimum conditions that could keep going past their tolerance.

I have no idea if this is true or not but here's the source;
see the recipes tab; one month BOMM and experiments tab; yeast selection;

https://www.denardbrewing.com

I have two BOMMs brewing right now, they took off faster than any mead I have seen. It at 66 deg so it not a temperature accelerated speed. I really don't want a rocket fuel or an overly alcohol mead, which it's not suppose to be. time will tell.
 
#3 ·
I've read thru his site. Makes one think.

Lets say I have a yeast I love for hard cider, but its listed tolerance is 10% ABV. Based on Denards results and theories, is could be possible to turn out a mead of 12-13% ABV, just by tweeking technique. That could mean adding some different yeast character to future meads.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I've read thru his site. Makes one think.
Precisely, that is what I did! I thought about it and though about it and realized doing it would be a logical approach. I was skeptical because I was taught how to do things a certain way and this was not how I was taught. So, I ran several one gallon test batches and found that it did indeed work. Now for me that was awesome because I have always preferred higher alcohol sweet desert drinks over dry! So now I follow the BOMM method with all my mead making and have improved my mead overall. I am happy and was eager to share. I hope those of you that are willing to try this have as happy an ending as I did. Here is something else to read that might be of interest. http://meadist.com/making-mead/great-ale-yeast-mead-experiment-brewing-mead-with-ale-yeast/ :D
 
#5 ·
1388 can make a good mead "off the shelf" so to say. My wandering mind however is thinking about the possibilities of extending "non traditional" yeasts into mead making. Like pushing a Belgian Strong or Saisson type up into the more "traditional" wine yeast territory of 14-16%. By doing so a person could add a new set of esther complexity not necessarily inherent is the more commonly used wine yeasts.
 
#6 ·
Sacked Mead is nothing new The technique of sacking has been around for a long time. And is basically what is described in the link. Yeast alcohol tollerances are researched by the manufacture of the yeast. yeasts are developed for certain purposes. some may be for alcohol volume targets, some may have been developed to set a specific fermentation rate to ensure a good nose is left. While others may be crafted with other goals in mind. When a developer determines the alcohol tolerance they also determine through numerous samplings the variation, In other words a yeast with an alcohol tolerance of 14% with Low Variation will always quit very close to it's tolerances Under a normal ferment. this does not account for sacking, and even sacking has its limits.
 
#8 ·
Thanks Tenbears.

In the BOMM recipes what exactly makes it "sacking"? K2CO3, degassing, step feeding or all three? The reason I ask, I am pondering ways to reduce the FG 16% and bring it closer to 12-14% with out staving or stressing the yeast. Could I just reduce the last step feeding by maybe half or skip it all together then cold crash and stabilize?
 
#10 · (Edited)
Sacking is using larger quantities of honey having a high starting gravity. It also requires more attention and nutrients or there is risk of a stall. The BOMM is nothing more than the method and yeast used by Dr. Denard. His first name is Bray so you get Brays One Month Mead. And to clarify, you can start with a very high gravity and the yeast won't die so long as you give them proper nutrients! I have started a many sack meads with a gravity between 1.140 and 1.175 using 1388. The yeast is slow to take off but take off they do! I also buffer with the K2CO3 because once they get going they are like little roman legions decimating the sugars available and that can drop PH quickly stalling the fermentation!
 
#9 ·
Well I guess what I'm really on about is can a higher tolerance Ale yeast make a good mead?

I know a Short Mead could be made as they are lower ABV, But.....has anyone sacked an Ale yeast up to normal mead ABV? Would the differing characteristics of an Ale yeast be worth the extra effort?
 
#13 ·
OK, so it looks like some people have taken the leap and made some good meads without the "traditional" wine yeasts. That is good news to me, as I like to add some spin to things when I can. Also seems like a much more "labor" intensive process, needing sacking and SNA to get the final ABV into the 14% range. So at present I will stick to my Cote de Blanc and hone my basic cyser/mead making. As I progress and have more free time I will branch out to some of the other yeasts and see what I can make with them!
 
#14 · (Edited)
You can easily get the ABV up to 21% without Sacking Simply use a yeast that has an alcohol tolerance of your desired level For example Lalvin K1-V1116 and Lalvin EC-1118 go to 18% Red Star Flor Sherry can go to 20% Wyeast Dry Mead and Zinfandel go to 18% And Wyeast Eau de Vie goes to 21%.

Simply set your SG to far enough above the Amount required for the Tolerances to leave the desired Residual sugar If you do not leave enough for your taste You can always back sweeten, Or ferment to dryness and back sweeten.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I think it is well established that the wine and champaigne yeasts can and do make great mead. My interest is in using other available yeasts. Yeast flavor profiles can vary quite a bit between the "normal" wine type, ale yeasts, even lagering yeasts. Most of the beer yeasts would only be good for a Short Mead(low ABV), but it seems like some could be pushed along to make a Traditional(mid ABV).

I am the type of person who likes to reach my goal, but not necessarily by walking the common path. Sometimes it works, sometimes it is a great adventure with good results, and sometimes ya just have to start over......
 
#16 ·
High ABV and flavor profile are as a rule generally not considered within the same mead. Many beer yeast utilize a fast somewhat hot ferment which can destroy the subtle nuances of the honey profile. I do however use some beer and ale yeasts if ferments where I am looking for specific profiles as they seem to develop those flavors well. Let me say this though, I used several bear and ale yeast for that reason years ago resulting in so great meads, However every one I have sent to competition got one thing hit constantly, Thin thready legs! Small point category but enough to forestall medaling. They may do better today in the right competition, because so many of the younger guys and gals today seem to accept small flaws if their is something of great merit to make the mead favorable.

"I am the type of person who likes to reach my goal, but not necessarily by walking the common path. Sometimes it works, sometimes it is a great adventure with good results, and sometimes ya just have to start over...... " I think all Masers are to a degree. Even after 50+ years of mead making I still look for new and different ways to produce interesting and flavorful meads even if I have to sacrifice a bit of one facet to get those results.

Good Luck And enjoy the journey!
 
#20 ·
So it is painfully obvious you guys disagree on stuff, lol.

Point of the thread was to explore the use of alternative yeasts(strong ale,saisson, other non-wine yeasts), and so far the concensus is yes. The yes includes a fair bit of extra work and more advanced technique, so not as noob friendly.
 
#21 ·
Yes, he and I disagree... I am not trying to bash him or anyone but he says things and has no reference backing it. I at least include links and reference to what I am saying. It is for the individual to determine if he wants to include what I have to say based on verifiable evidence. Yes, it is advantageous to use other yeasts for mead and some do require more attention and care but the results are very positive. I hope you try some of this as I have! I have shared my meads with many where I live and the consensus is that
I should go commercial. I am not so sure myself but who knows :D Happy fermenting!! :thumbsup:
 
#23 ·
I will be trying alternative yeasts, but not quite yet. As they will take more care and technique I want to get a few batches under my belt. I am getting ready to bottle my first ever this week, after a few successful ferments with the more traditional wine yeasts I will be more comfortable branching out.
 
#31 ·
I actually did not experiment much and used Lalvin yeast exclusively for many years. I made good meads that many have enjoyed but the last few years I have been digging pretty deep into mead trying to learn as much as I can. That is how I came across Dr. Denard and his experiments. I experimented with gallon batches but now my average batch is five gallons. I share a lot of my mead and drink my fare share as well, so I make in the neighborhood of 50 gallons a year. My wife can't drink wine and she hates beer so she drinks a lot of my mead as well. If you can afford it experiment with small batches while keeping your larger ones for what you are comfortable with. I have made several small batches of Sima trying to get the carbonation just right and have enjoyed drinking the experiments! I have a gruit bottled and waiting tasting that I made using Dr. Denards advice........ cant wait! The point I am making is that this is an enjoyable and delicious hobby so don't hold back! :thumbsup:
 
#24 ·
You want simple? Choose EC-1118 and put 12 lbs of honey and a half pound of bee pollen in a brewing bucket and put an aquarium aereator and an air stone on it for three days at close to 70F. Transfer to a carboy and set in the dark above 65F. Whenever the air lock quits bubbling, check SG and add another pound of honey if the SG is below 1. If above 1, wait until it goes below and add another pound of honey. You will breed the hardiest yeast in the environment with high alcohol tolerance. Not hard to get 22% alcohol. I did it by accident the first time by using EC 1118 instead of the 71b the recipe called for. It took nearly two years to become drinkable but now it is exquisite. Expect any high alcohol mead to take quite a long time to become fit to drink. Not a new and technically SOOOO advanced method but it works fine. But you must be desperate if you need all that panty remover.
 
#25 ·
Not necessarily looking to create a high ABV, but to use the yeast as a natural "flavor". Those who brew beer will understand, as yeast strains for beer/ale are regarded for flavor profile as well as ABV. Most of the wine yeasts are/were developed to impart little change to the flavor profile of the must.
 
#27 ·
A straight mead should have a bright but delicate nose, It's legs should be clear and well defined, it should fall upon the tongue lightly and excite the pallet. The finish should linger with notes of the honey's Varity. Leaving the drinker desiring another sip or glass. Although the yeast can and does play a role in bringing out the flavor profile of the mead. How one ferments the must can play a greater role. We are not looking to define the mead by it's bold coarseness as we do with ales or bears. but rather it's delicate subtleties, leaving one with a firm impression of the honey verities. I make a lot of Bochet, Bochetomel, Metheglin, and Melomels as well as other styles of Mead. often when doing so the flavor of the individual honey is lost or greatly diminished in the attempt to leave them with the desired flavor. Yes it always plays a role But how much depends on the process. The same is true of straight mead. The flavor profile can certainly be impacted by the yeast. However how we craft ur ferment can play a greater role. Avoiding things that can lead to off flavors is far more important. Such as Sanitation, of equipment, Ample Oxygenation at the onset of the ferment, maintaining a slow lower temperature ferment, proper yeast nutrition, Not stepping nutrients in too late in the ferment. Preventing oxidation late in the ferment of during the aging process, Not allowing wild yeast to play ANY role in the ferment. All these things should be mastered before worrying about experimenting with yeasts. For one to know if they are achieving the most from their meads they first must know what makes a quality mead. I have people say they do not boil their water or use purified water because honey is antiseptic. Which is true right up until you add that honey to the water. Then all bets are off! They claim they have done it that way for years and have never had a bad batch. How do they know if they have never followed proven methods that produce a proper mead. So many things can have an impact on the quality of a mead. Does it mean they are undrinkable. Certainly not! But they may very well have been a lot better had these measures been followed.
 
#28 ·
Tenbears, your above post is a direct reflection of why I am not willing to experiment with other yeasts at this point. I have not sampled a huge variety of commercial or homemade meads. So until I have more experience with "traditional" wine yeast ferments it does not seem, to me at least, to be beneficial to branch out. I am quite sure I will at some point in the future though......
 
#33 ·
CR, I am only running 1 gallon batches at present. Both for cider and mead. I am just reentering the brewing world and am trying to stay fairly simple. I mostly drink cider these days so that is where I started up again. Then caught a bunch of articles and blogs etc... that also had info on mead, that led me to my batch of cyser that I posted on here. Another reason for the small batches is that I am pretty much the only one drinking it, so I can tweak recipes/change yeasts quicker, a 5 gallon batch would leave me with too much drinking to do in between batches!
 
#39 ·
That which I described is the technique used for many many years in Finland! You can call it what ever you want, makes no difference to me! It's older than you and your opinion means nothing. This is why we disagree, you with your doctorate are not as informed as you should be! Please stop talking to me, you and your opinion are meaningless.....
I tried that weeks ago! But if you for one minute think I am going to allow you to quote me and make demeaning, insulting remarks and let it go you are sadly mistaken. When you stop promoting poor and now dangerous methodology I will say nothing about your antics. BTW Blood letting was once considered Medicine!
 
#47 · (Edited by Moderator)
Yes I wanted to know if you were serious or just joking. It is sometimes hard to tell as some of your stuff is ridiculously funny.

For one you do not have to be 21 to brew wine and Mead. and I defy you to show me any federal law that states you do. You cannot drink it until you are 21 but there are no federal laws prohibiting making it. In fact a person of 18 years of age can apply for a vintners license. And in some states My home state included you do not even have to be 21 to work as a bartender!

Secondly This is the world wide web Meaning that people from all over the world have access to it. In Italy it is quite common for children as young as 10 to be involved with making as well as consuming wine and mead.

Your total lack of compassion and disregard for the safety of your fellow man is appalling.

Let us suppose an beginning mead maker of 21 years of age makes a mead following your idea. and as I said wants to preserve the sparkle and puts it in a Champaign bottle with a stopper and wires the stopper on because along with your advice he has also read that this is the best thing to do with a sparkling mead. he places the bottles in his basement on the shelf next to the washing machine. A month later his wife is doing the laundry while his beautiful 3 year old daughter plays on the floor beside mom. When all of a sudden one of the bottles bursts setting off a chain reaction of bursting bottles. The lady is seriously scared over her entire right side and the child I blinded.
Did they deserve it? No one deserves to be injured needlessly. and it shows a callus disregard for human life to think we are all not responsible to look out for our fellow man! I think you sir take Colorado's amendment 64 to seriously!
 
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