Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid. - Page 3
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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    FRASER VALLEY, BRITISH COLUMBIA
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    2,072

    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    So if I undestand correctly Apinor on every visit you spray 4-5 ml upon opening the colony. A bit more if needed. I assume that might be the case when you start pulling frames out. How many times do you visit a colony in a year 10-20 times? Then when they are broodless you use lactic again and completely spray the bees frame by frame? Others with more colonies could use oxalic, either drizzle or vaporization. This you have been doing for 19 years? I also assume that 85-90% of your colonies are alive and relatively well come spring.

    Jean-Marc

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  3. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    fairfax county, virginia, USA
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    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    Apinor,

    I wasn't familiar with lactic acid until this thread, thank you. To extend on Jean Marc's observation, could one put lactic acid in a vaporizing fogger for regular (constant?) treatment? If it is as effective at Varroa control as advertised, and doesn't contaminate the honey, why not fog the hives all summer with it? (USDA and FDA rules notwithstanding).

    I am naturally a little reluctant to accept anything as a panacea, and I'm not accusing you of calling it a cure-all. But if it IS both benign and effective, entrance fogging is so fast that it raises the possibility of treating at short intervals. I'm thinking of a non-heated type of fogger that uses vaporizing technology rather than heat steaming, which seems more likely to create unwanted compounds.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lexington, VA, USA
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    465

    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave w in virginia View Post
    Apinor,

    I wasn't familiar with lactic acid until this thread, thank you. To extend on Jean Marc's observation, could one put lactic acid in a vaporizing fogger for regular (constant?) treatment? If it is as effective at Varroa control as advertised, and doesn't contaminate the honey, why not fog the hives all summer with it? (USDA and FDA rules notwithstanding).

    I am naturally a little reluctant to accept anything as a panacea, and I'm not accusing you of calling it a cure-all. But if it IS both benign and effective, entrance fogging is so fast that it raises the possibility of treating at short intervals. I'm thinking of a non-heated type of fogger that uses vaporizing technology rather than heat steaming, which seems more likely to create unwanted compounds.
    Now that is an interesting idea. That is what many are turning to with oxalic acid as a delivery method but heated to sublimate the acid.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    So the oa powder and glycerine post is not unwanted compound by heating either.
    Why not turn this towel making method into using lactic acid instead of oa powder?
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    fairfax county, virginia, USA
    Posts
    60

    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    So the oa powder and glycerine post is not unwanted compound by heating either.
    Why not turn this towel making method into using lactic acid instead of oa powder?
    Beepro, I think the answer to your question depends on the biological method by which lactic acid works. If it works in the same manner as OAV or powder then towels would do. But as you are probably well aware, there are many biological methods which could attack the Varroa mite and I don't know which vulnerability of Varroa is exploited by lactic acid. Maybe some of the studies cited by Apinar explain this.

    Just to mention a few: it might affect respiration at some point of the Varroa life cycle, it might affect development or reproduction, motility, their use of camoflouge pheromone, ability to grasp the bees, ability to smell or see, it may damage some part of their anatomy... It could be any of a hundred different interruptions to the life cycle. It may be something the mites can evolve to resist, and it may not. I hope some smart biologists can shed some light on it. Because if it is benign, then the FDA would approve its application up to a certain level, and then it could be a good tool for effective IPM.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
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    4,495

    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    I found this thread and will append the publication about lactic acid efficacy.
    As I am typing this, I am also drinking my fix of home-made kefir with a slice of warm fresh sourdough bread.

    Now that's lactic acid - a real food and, seems to be, actually working mite treatment.

    Efficacies of Formic, Oxalic and Lactic Acids Against Varroa destructor in Naturally Infested Honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) Colonies in Turkey
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nies_in_Turkey
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,538

    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    bump for updates

    Hmm PURAC via Corbion in the US is only selling 55 gal drums.
    If anyone using this in the US, has a US source with a smaller size , please offer the place you order from.

    GG
    Last edited by Gray Goose; 07-08-2020 at 07:35 AM.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    4,495

    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    bump for updates

    Hmm PURAC via Corbion in the US is only selling 55 gal drums.
    If anyone using this in the US, has a US source with a smaller size , please offer the place you order from.

    GG
    If you are asking about lactic acid (I assume so) - pretty much everyone sells it for health, cosmetic and food usages:
    https://www.amazon.com/Lactic-Acid-8...08CKR4BQS?th=1
    https://www.ebay.com/b/Lactic-Acid/21022/bn_7023332848
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    2,146

    Default Re: Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.

    What an extraordinary paper. I can understand why Formic Acid had to be applied differently to the other acids - but why on earth apply Lactic Acid as a powder, and Oxalic Acid as a liquid ?

    Even more puzzling - why was 15% lactic acid chosen, and how was this formed (i.e. what constituted the other 85%) ? I just don't see how these substances can be compared side-by-side for effectiveness unless the choice of 15% is explained.

    Their results for Lactic Acid (87.7%) were lower than for Oxalic Acid (93.7%), and much lower than other trials, where Kraus and Berg found 94.2 - 99.8% efficacy with two lactic acid spray treatments in autumn.

    Those figures (high 90's) for lactic acid are comparable with the most effective of any other Varroa treatment currently available.
    LJ

    Update:
    I've just checked an Abstract of the Kraus and Berg paper, where a 15% solution of lactic acid was employed. It may be that the Turkish authors did exactly the same - and that their use of the word "pulverise" (meaning a fine powder) was due to language difficulties.

    If anyone is able to gain access to a full copy of the Kraus and Berg paper, that would be extremely useful.
    Last edited by little_john; 07-15-2020 at 05:10 AM. Reason: update
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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