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Thread: De-gassing?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumpy View Post
    Never cared much for wine snobs who insist my fruit wines, some of which contain a good portion of honey, are not wine at all because they have no grape content. In the words of Col. Sherman T. Potter, "Horse Hocky!" To paraphrase something I just read, just because a word was defined in Latin does not mean there is not a better way to define the word.
    I made mead for 20 years before I tried to make wine, it spawned from the countless melomels and pyments I began to make for variety. Anyone who thinks that fruit wine is not wine is clearly mistaken. I find it takes a greater understanding of the art than grape wines. I know dozens of people who go to the winery buy juice add yeast and ferment some pretty good wine. the same cannot be said of fruit wines. Even kit users often make a fruit wine that is merely passable.
    It takes a special knack and talent to ferment a fruit wine and not loose the fruit flavor in the process. Nothing like opening a bottle of peach wine (Which I believe to be the most aromatic) and the fellow sitting two seats away can tell you it is peach before you pour a glass.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenbears View Post
    It takes a special knack and talent to ferment a fruit wine and not loose the fruit flavor in the process. Nothing like opening a bottle of peach wine (Which I believe to be the most aromatic) and the fellow sitting two seats away can tell you it is peach before you pour a glass.
    I believe peach is the most difficult fruit to make wine from. I have yet to make one I am satisfied with. Nearly impossible to retain the flavor and aroma of the peach. I've pretty much given up on that one.

    Now, apricots are another story, indeed!

  4. #23
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    Jan 2014
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    Louisville, Colorado, USA
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    The Peach.
    There is nothing like a perfectly ripe peach. The ultimate in the balance of sweet/tart, juiciness and texture. Beats out a perfect mango just by a hair...due to the mango's stringy nature.

    Anyway, any hints on how to make a peachy-flavored peach mead would be welcome indeed!

    The technique is what interests me. I care not if mead is honey wine or some other entity. HOW to make it better is my goal.

    Case in point:
    I made a cherry mead and described the technique I used. Tenbears advised me not to cook/stew the fruit next time. So, next I made a grape mead and did not cook the grapes......The result........ a much better flavor, even after a couple months when I sampled some of it. Thanks for that!

  5. #24
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenbears View Post
    It is not a mater of Thinking Like Tenbears, Because as I stated in my last post "There are a great many ways to do things and the results can be varied." I use many techniques to brew mead and yes I do Research. What I do not do is spread unfounded inaccurate information as fact. No yeast produces alcohol greater than it's own alcohol tolerances. To profess that you are magically making it do so is simply wrong there is no other alternative. I have pointed this out in the past yet you persist. It is just that simple. I need not "do the math" because it does not add up! Starting SG 1.175 somewhere between 1.093 and 1.080 wyeath 1388 yeast dies 12 to 14 % alcohol in a sweet mead.(I have No doubt it would be good!) When alcohol exceeds the tolerance of a given yeast the yeast dies, period. You can try to explain it away however you like but facts are facts the yeast cannot live in the environment. Just as you could not live in an environment where the partial pressure of oxygen is greater than 29.4 PSI you would die from Oxygen toxicity. These are unescapable facts. And it is Wyeath that says so when they developed the strain!
    BTW the term "By definition" is but a paraphrase often used to group items or similar things. like saying that old gal is by definition ugly. You really do not find her when you look it up!. Your reference "the bigest misconceptions surrounding it is that todays mazer has approached mead making from a vintners point of view" is also flawed Because quality meads can be made from sound wine making techniques, more so than hocus pouch do this do that add this to try build a better mousetrap. An understanding of every ingredient, supplement, compound and chemical introduced into the must, How they work and the role they play in the process is far better that mixing up a batch of whole hive mead saying that how the kelt's did it and proclaiming therefor it is better, is just foolhardy.
    Do some of your own research as you profess to like to, read about yeasts how they work, how they develop, how they produce alcohol. Understand the different strains and how their fermentations affect the mead. Understand that although healthy ferments are a good thing, a fast ferment may not be as they tend to burn up the subtle tones of the honey.
    Nothing personal I would respond similarly if you were telling people you give your bees bubble baths and they produce greater volumes of honey/ I would say it to my best friend. There is a big difference between varying techniques and insisting things that simply cannot happen!
    You are quick to say what I have done is somehow impossible. I challenge you and anyone else here to prove me wrong! Don't just SAY i'm wrong because that my friend is older than the process of fermentation itself. I could say you are old and stuck in your ways refusing to try something new or different just because it is new or different. People like you have been proven wrong by pioneers time and time again! So here you go, try this and then tell me I am wrong: This recipe can be found here if you think I made this up https://www.denardbrewing.com/blog/post/Sweet-bomm/ And as I stated before, I will do so agian! I also did not believe it was possible but unlike you I actually tried it and guess what, it worked!

    Sweet Sack BOMM (Step Feed)

    1. Start with 1 gallon Ozarka Spring water.
    2. Remove 1/2 cup water to compensate for smack pack volume.
    3. Draw line on jugs at current water level.
    4. Remove an additional4 cups of water from 1 gallon jugs.
    5. Add OB honey to line. About 3 lbs. SG 1.12
    6. Add 1/4 tsp DAP and 1/2 tsp of Fermaid K.
    -Add above again at 1.08 & 1.04.
    7. Add 1/4 tsp K2CO3 (one time).
    8. Shake to dissolve all honey.
    9. Add an activated pack of Wyeast 1388 yeast.
    -No water in airlock for 7 days.

    Step Feeding
    1. Once the gravity hits 1.000-1.005, add 2 ounces of honey. Don't try to dissolve it. It will dissolve naturally over a few days. This will increase the gravity by 0.005 points.
    2. Once the gravity hits 1.000, add another 2 ounces.
    3. Repeat until the yeast give up and hold gravity.

    Notes: Frequent, very small additions of honey will allow the yeast to push to maximum alcohol tolerance. The above method will push Wyeast 1388 to 19% ABV even though the published max is 13% ABV!

    If you simply want a sweeter mead faster, add 8 oz of honey per addition. The yeast won't reach such a high ABV, but they will give up faster. More honey makes it more difficult for the yeast to continue fermenting.

    Post Fermentation (After FG stabilizes)
    -Add 3 cubes American and 2 cubes of French Medium toast oak up to 4 weeks.
    -Add 1 vanilla bean for 2-4 weeks.

    by denardb on March 21, 2015
    Last edited by Ravenseye; 01-18-2017 at 11:19 AM.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    Let's keep posts here quite civil please. There's always PM's for arguments.
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  7. #26
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    May 2012
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    Sweet Sack BOMM (Step Feed)

    1. Start with 1 gallon Ozarka Spring water.
    2. Remove 1/2 cup water to compensate for smack pack volume.
    3. Draw line on jugs at current water level.
    4. Remove an additional4 cups of water from 1 gallon jugs.
    5. Add OB honey to line. About 3 lbs. SG 1.12
    6. Add 1/4 tsp DAP and 1/2 tsp of Fermaid K.
    -Add above again at 1.08 & 1.04.
    7. Add 1/4 tsp K2CO3 (one time).
    8. Shake to dissolve all honey.
    9. Add an activated pack of Wyeast 1388 yeast.
    -No water in airlock for 7 days.

    Step Feeding
    1. Once the gravity hits 1.000-1.005, add 2 ounces of honey. Don't try to dissolve it. It will dissolve naturally over a few days. This will increase the gravity by 0.005 points.
    2. Once the gravity hits 1.000, add another 2 ounces.
    3. Repeat until the yeast give up and hold gravity.

    Notes: Frequent, very small additions of honey will allow the yeast to push to maximum alcohol tolerance. The above method will push Wyeast 1388 to 19% ABV even though the published max is 13% ABV!

    If you simply want a sweeter mead faster, add 8 oz of honey per addition. The yeast won't reach such a high ABV, but they will give up faster. More honey makes it more difficult for the yeast to continue fermenting.

    Post Fermentation (After FG stabilizes)
    -Add 3 cubes American and 2 cubes of French Medium toast oak up to 4 weeks.
    -Add 1 vanilla bean for 2-4 weeks.

    by denardb on March 21, 2015
    This is a sacked recipe. Sacking Is another ball of wax altogether from what you have been describing all along. NEVER in one of your numerous posts of "Your" technique. have you ever described or mentioned a sacked Mead. sacked recipes MAY produce higher alcohol. The recipe described MAY produce alcohol as high as 19% and 19 IS NOT 20 Up until I called you on it you have never mentioned sacking your meads
    "And I also wanted to mention that I am enjoying a Muscot/Clover Pyment that had a SG 1.175 and a FG 1.025! Do the math, that is nearly 20%!" Here is what you pasted earlier in this thread. That I not a sacked mead! you cannot start a sacked mead at 1.175. as stated in your post " The yeast won't reach such a high ABV, but they will give up faster. More honey makes it more difficult for the yeast to continue fermenting.*
    Funny thing is you have been proclaiming this technique since you joined as the way to make " High Alcohol sweet mead" just look at post #13 here.
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ut-need-advice

    So don't say "You are quick to say what I have done is somehow impossible" I have been very slow to say it Hoping you would take the hints and research it and make adjustments in your future proclamations. I never said you cannot make sacked meads that produce higher than tolerances than the yeast provides I was saying "YOUR" methods of doing it was Imposable as Noted in "Starting SG 1.175 somewhere between 1.093 and 1.080 wyeath 1388 yeast dies 12 to 14 % alcohol in a sweet mead" I am sure you will find another way to defend it so I am now done with this. You can lead a horse to water!

  8. #27
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    Canon City Colorado
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenbears View Post
    This is a sacked recipe. Sacking Is another ball of wax altogether from what you have been describing all along. NEVER in one of your numerous posts of "Your" technique. have you ever described or mentioned a sacked Mead. sacked recipes MAY produce higher alcohol. The recipe described MAY produce alcohol as high as 19% and 19 IS NOT 20 Up until I called you on it you have never mentioned sacking your meads
    "And I also wanted to mention that I am enjoying a Muscot/Clover Pyment that had a SG 1.175 and a FG 1.025! Do the math, that is nearly 20%!" Here is what you pasted earlier in this thread. That I not a sacked mead! you cannot start a sacked mead at 1.175. as stated in your post " The yeast won't reach such a high ABV, but they will give up faster. More honey makes it more difficult for the yeast to continue fermenting.*
    Funny thing is you have been proclaiming this technique since you joined as the way to make " High Alcohol sweet mead" just look at post #13 here.
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ut-need-advice

    So don't say "You are quick to say what I have done is somehow impossible" I have been very slow to say it Hoping you would take the hints and research it and make adjustments in your future proclamations. I never said you cannot make sacked meads that produce higher than tolerances than the yeast provides I was saying "YOUR" methods of doing it was Imposable as Noted in "Starting SG 1.175 somewhere between 1.093 and 1.080 wyeath 1388 yeast dies 12 to 14 % alcohol in a sweet mead" I am sure you will find another way to defend it so I am now done with this. You can lead a horse to water!
    LOL.... now it's another ball of wax ....... no pun intended I'm sure. I never claimed the technique as mine though I wish I could. I have never disguised anything here and anyone who knows mead that reads my posts should instantly realize that I am doing what's referred to as sacking mead. The problem I have is that you said " yeast cannot exceed it's rated alcohol tolerance" which is what I am disputing. Here are your exact words from post 15 "Secondly. A given yeast can only produce alcohol by volume equal to it's alcohol tolerance. Alcohol tolerance is a given yeasts ability to survive in the presence of alcohol measured in percentage. Wyeath 1388 Has an alcohol tolerance of between 12 -13% with low fluctuation. Meaning no matter how much sugar you start with, how many times you sack, or how often you stir, dance or pray. you will never produce anything with 20%alcohol. If one doubts the tolerances follow the link to Wyeath's site and read it for yourself!" So according to what you have been saying no matter what I do to include praying, dancing or sacking the yeast I use cannot exceed it's alcohol tolerance! That is what you have been telling me and everyone here. I am disputing that claim because I have exceeded the alcohol tolerance of Wyeast 1388 by following the methods of someone else who has done the same. Making mead is making mead though we call it Sack, Cyser, Pyment, Metheglin, Melomel, Acerglyn ect. when we use specific ingredients or methods. You can Sack mead in two different way as noted above in the recipe. I have done both and have exceeded the tolerance of 1388 doing it both ways. Did I reach 20% no but my math for that Pyment landed me at 19.67% so I rounded up because mathematically when rounding that's how you do it. I guess I could have said 19 or specifically 19.67 but 20 sounded great! I also have a wonderful Cyser that is only 16% that I have nearly finished off that was done in a sack manor. I have a Pyment Pinot Nior/Orange blossom that was a little over 16% going into secondary that is still fermenting and I am guessing will exceed 17%. My whole intent here is to share my knowledge and things I have learned not to make enemies or have arguments! So that is what I am doing sharing and defending myself at the same time. I am sorry we disagree but facts are fact and the proof is in my bottles. I truly wish you the best sir because no ill will was intended on my part! Happy fermenting

  9. #28
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    Let's please keep difference of opinion as respectful differences. Beekeepers, just as mazers, can disagree without resorting to snark.

    I'll add that I think the degassing questions may have left me behind a bit. Degassing is just as the etymology would indicate: removal of dissolved gasses. Agitation of a fermenting mead cannot introduce oxygen except in an open fermentation as there isn't any in the air: it's been displaced long ago by the voluminous production of CO2. In an open ferment it could be possible, but few modern fermentations of mead are conducted this way and for good reason.
    Bees, brews and fun
    in Lyons, CO

  10. #29
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    Default Re: De-gassing?

    Just could not leave it go could you!
    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoRaptor View Post
    LOL.... Alcohol tolerance is a given yeasts ability to survive in the presence of alcohol measured in percentage. Wyeath 1388 Has an alcohol tolerance of between 12 -13% with low fluctuation. Meaning no matter how much sugar you start with, how many times you sack, or how often you stir, dance or pray. you will never produce anything with 20%alcohol.:
    And I still Stand by that! A yeast that has a tolerance of 13% can only attain a maximum alcohol through sacking of 19% Quite often it peters out before that. Even your own links and posts support this!
    see your statement in earlier pose "Notes: Frequent, very small additions of honey will allow the yeast to push to maximum alcohol tolerance. The above method will push Wyeast 1388 to 19% ABV even though the published max is 13% ABV!" NOTE I EVEN INCLUDED SACKING IN THE ORIGIONAL POST FOR THAT REASON!

    Furthermore this statement is incorrect. "no but my math for that Pyment landed me at 19.67% " your math is WRONG! and I will tell you why. When figuring Alcohol By Volume (ABV) one must account for the alcohol's dilution of the solution. Water at 20C or whatever temperature your Hydrometer is calibrated at Gives a reading of 1.000 Hydrometers measure density of a given liquid! When solids are dissolved in a given liquid they make it denser as a result the hydrometer floats higher. HOWEVER, alcohol is thinner than water, Thus when alcohol is added to water it's density goes down. This is the reason dry meads quite often finish at 0.995 alcohol in the mead thins it out. When a must that starts at 1.175 finishes at 1.025 there is also alcohol in the mix that thin the mixture. As such that finished reading of 1.025 does not indicate that there is 25 points of sugar in the mead it is actually slightly higher. However, the amount of viscosity lost to the thinner alcohol is greater than the difference in residual sugar. Now, I am not going through the mathematical equation's to determine the factor used to determine actual ABV I will tell you this. To determine alcohol in such a situation one takes the starting SG and deducts the finishing SG. In this case it would be .150 then divides that by .00736. The factor produced by the aforementioned equations. Some use .0074 for the sake of convenience and I have had some tell me they use .0075. In any event figuring the aforementioned SG would result in an ABV of 20.38, 20.29, and 20.00 respectively. Again I reintegrate an impossibility.

    In regard to this statement "anyone who knows mead that reads my posts should instantly realize that I am doing what's referred to as sacking mead" The same applies to someone who sacks mead as the starting SG is always well below the desired SG to achieve the targeted ABV. Anyone who actually sacks mead uses the proper terminology of Total SG and NOT Starting SG which is just as described the SG before sacking! As well studied as you claim to be one would think you would know that! "I have done both and have exceeded the tolerance of 1388 doing it both ways" You may very well have But not to 20% Although it is possible to sack a mead to 20% and even higher it cannot be done with a yeast that has a tolerance of 13% one must start with something with a higher tolerances. even stimulated ferments intended to extend the meads productivity have their limits. These are facts!
    If the proof is in the bottle send me one I will test it and tell you Exactly what the ABV is. Or I can tell you how to do it post fermentation even if the SG values are not known. But you probably already know how.
    Last edited by Tenbears; 01-20-2017 at 04:21 AM. Reason: Typo

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