randy oliver article in january '17 abj - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Isn't that what the RNAi project is trying to do?
    I saw a recent Indigo project using ultrasound to disrupt the mites behavior, from a German beekeeper.

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  3. #82
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Ray Olivarez is nurturing specific lines of the Saskatraz project, he tells me he's warmed up towards a few lines they have helped develop. I'm going to try a few of these queens next season out of pure curiosity sake and provide some feedback

  4. #83
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    This is looking a bit like a circular firing squad!

    I think the problem is not with the bee, but most of the noble effort is being exerted on changing the bee! That, at least here on this forum, is the focus. If I had unlimited funds to allocate to solving the root problem I would be redirecting research towards messing up the mites game! He is the bad guy that rode into town.
    This is a much more likely route to solve the problem than queen breeding efforts. But, you are right, it will be very expensive to do it today.

    Mites really are not that big a problem for commercial guys compared to lots of other issues they have to deal with. Mites are a big deal to back yard bee keepers simply because all to often they are not practicing reasonable animal husbandry. Even if mites were not a problem at all the back yard bee keepers will still kill a lot of hives by neglect. There is no genetic cure for neglect.

  5. #84
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Isn't that what the RNAi project is trying to do?
    from my understanding one of many possible applications being studied.

  6. #85
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cryberg View Post

    Mites really are not that big a problem for commercial guys compared to lots of other issues they have to deal with.
    Mites are a problem for the commercial guys, but at least some of the mobile pollination operators (and that is the bulk of commercial locally) in our area openly talk about applying meds and pesticide (usually Apivar) 24/7/365.

    They do this to lower labour costs, but the price is: driving pest and disease resistance, tolerating suppressed brood disease.
    Last edited by WesternWilson; 12-27-2016 at 05:27 AM.

  7. #86
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Of course mites are a problem for all beekeepers including the commercials but its a problem shared equally by everyone so the net effect is positive for those who have a good mite control program.
    Year around med and pesticide applications? I suppose its done by a few but if honey production is part of your income then I think it would be pretty risky as all the major packers I deal with have a pretty extensive testing program.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #87
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    One of the early post. First page. Commented on how one beekeeper does not like how a resistant colony looks. yet prefers the better to them looking colony that is susceptible to Varroa. Basically choose the bad choice because it looks better. Which brought me to the thought that for decades if not centuries bees have been handled to "Look Better". I suspect with little knowledge of what "Is Better". Not the same thing. And with evidence that you can look right at something make it impossible to deny that it is anything but better but then still say. "I'll take the crappy bees that die". you have your work cut out for you.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  9. #88
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    sounds like lharder is the one who is convinced 'it can't be done'. i forget the statistic, but i believe that it is somewhere upwards of 95% of all bee colonies in the u.s. are produced and managed for commercial migratory operations.
    This statistic points to part of the problem in my opinion. I think lharder's concern is legitimate in regard to the question can it work. In regard to deserving of keeping jobs, of course the beekeepers deserve it. Steel workers deserved to keep their jobs. Auto workers....so many people who learned specific skill sets are no longer working those type jobs. Unfortunately, that is the nature of business, and that is what commercial beekeeping is. A business. It appears to be failing to some degree. My sincere hope is that bees and the business can get back to being healthy. That might take adaptation from both bee and beekeeper.

  10. #89

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordak View Post
    It appears to be failing to some degree.
    And there I was thinking that there were more hives in the US today than in recent history. More hives in almonds....or so I thought.
    Goes to show you how little I know.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  11. #90
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    And there I was thinking that there were more hives in the US today than in recent history. More hives in almonds....or so I thought.
    Goes to show you how little I know.
    Why are we even having this discussion then? Carry on. Nothing to see here.

  12. #91
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordak View Post
    This statistic points to part of the problem in my opinion...
    i didn't mean to imply that the concern wasn't legimate. i believe it's fair to say that no other group among us has more at stake with respect to making progress on varroa control than the commercials for all sorts of reasons.

    i'll refer you to jim's post #74 for confirmation that the industry is far from 'failing'. rather than varroa, the biggest threat appears to a market flooded with fake honey imported from china.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #92
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    I didn't say it was utterly failing. I said it was failing to some degree. That is the sense I get from some reports. I'm not in the field, admittedly. Perhaps we are creating problems where none exist.

    Regarding import, we all know that's what's killed most industry. I can empathize with that struggle.
    Last edited by Nordak; 12-27-2016 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Autocorrect

  14. #93
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    sounds like lharder is the one who is convinced 'it can't be done'. i forget the statistic, but i believe that it is somewhere upwards of 95% of all bee colonies in the u.s. are produced and managed for commercial migratory operations.

    those folks work hard to make their living and deserve just as much opportunity to do so as any the rest of us. i would be the last in line in terms of making demands on them for the sake of my little 20 hive operation.

    but in the longer run, it is just as much if not more so in the interest of the big outfits to see some progress made with respect to bees getting better at dealing with mites, and with all due respect i think most of them realize that.

    we'll have to see what randy has in mind about getting "serious about dealing with varroa", and to what degree the industry is motivated to engage in a renewed effort. there's no doubt it's a tough nut to crack, hopefully open minds and a willingness to work toward making some progress will prevail.
    A model changing, doesn't preclude business and work. If ecological principles were followed, it would change the agricultural landscape, but not the existence of agriculture itself. In fact I mourn the countless economic opportunities lost because of carelessness. Case study upon case study. Following some ecological principles is a case for economic gain, and maintaining competitive advantages. These things are not to be frittered away for short term gain. I'm sure migratory beekeepers, because they bright practical people, would have found an excellent alternative paths in a different beekeeping environment. But if we want some stability, a new path has to be imagined.

  15. #94
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordak View Post
    I didn't say it was utterly failing. I said it was failing to some degree. That is the sense I get from some reports.
    understood. we haven't hashed it out here on the forum in a while, (thank goodness), but there's no doubt that the 'demise' of the bees has been hyped in the media typically by agenda driven groups utilizing the bees as their poster child. the ground truth (see randy oliver's articles for example) is very different.

    but what we are discussing here is the fact that varroa has been with us for almost 30 years and the best we have been able to achieve is a stalemate. the question is: are the mites really that much smarter than we are?

    randy and others are suggesting that it's the industry's fault for not being more proactive. i have suggested in my posts above that the 'band aids' are more convenient and cost effective for most. a concern for us all is the possibility that we may run out of band aids.

    we have documentation that bee populations can become resistant/tolerant to varroa. we humans are pretty smart when we want to be. hopefully someone much more expertise than me will come up with a doable way forward. right now it looks like randy is taking the lead in that regard.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #95
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    But if we want some stability, a new path has to be imagined.
    yes, and i would add not only be imagined but made palatable.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #96
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    I think it could be done in a stepped gradual fashion with ecologists, virologists, and epidemiologists involved to document impacts on bee populations from those relatively isolated to those in the main current of bee movement. I'm guessing there is a sweet spot for the right amount of bee movement. If it was done over the long term, bee health could be gradually improved over wider and wider parts of the continent, allowing very slow adaptation by migratory operations, landowners and bee sellers. Local bee clubs could do a lot simply by aiming for bee self sufficiency within their club members and new members.

  18. #97
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    I understand. Clearly bees aren't in danger of going extinct. That's nonsense talk. The issue is just as you put it, from my understanding. I read Randy's articles often, and am amazed by his mind and foresight. An asset to beeks. Failing was a bad term to use. Failing to recognize the potential pitfalls of current practice might be a better way of getting to the heart of what I meant. Apologies I wasn't clearer. I have a tendency sometimes to think and write in shorthand. I know there are many skilled and successful commercial beeks on this forum and they know much more about the reality of the situation than I do looking from the outside.

  19. #98
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    "Looking from the outside "

  20. #99
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Square, about this documentation about some bees developing resistance/tolerance to mites, I do not believe that there is any proof of such resistance only that bees are surviving treatment free. It could be that isolated areas have less virulent pathogens or perhaps those mites have adapted in some way, until some facts turn up as to what the reason of some colonies surviving we are still in the dark. We have been trying to breed better bees for 30 years maybe we should be trying to breed better mites or less virulent pathogens. As an aside I see a new bacteria has been discovered that is killing bees.
    Johno

  21. #100
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    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    "Looking from the outside "
    Not intended as a caveat. Remove it and re-read if you wish. I'm pretty far removed from commercial beekeeping in terms of geography. That's all I meant by the statement.

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