randy oliver article in january '17 abj - Page 4
Page 4 of 19 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 376
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    2,998

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    The European answer.
    While I agree that Arista is a move in the right direction, they are far behind the curve and will be at least 10 years if not more getting to the point where some U.S. beekeepers are already at today. Note that if you read the details from Arista, there are several U.S. beekeepers involved in the program. Bob Danka is one.

    Harry, I agree. You never said never. The problem succinctly stated is that varroa resistance so far is not compatible with spring pollination requirements. Bees that maintain large winter populations and can be triggered to pop in early spring will take time to develop. Dedicated long term beekeepers who are willing to do mite checks and find the small numbers of resistant queens are needed. BWeaver found 5 percent of their bees had what it takes. How would you feel if you found that 5 percent of your colonies were able to make it without treatments?
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #62

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    While I agree that Arista is a move in the right direction, they are far behind the curve and will be at least 10 years if not more getting to the point where some U.S. beekeepers are already at today.
    Lets make it a race!

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...cial-operation

  4. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    1,530

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordak View Post
    I agree that a certain amount of skepticism is healthy. Again, we are all products of our collective experiences. Seeing is believing and all that. Most of the successful TF guys I've talked to aren't claiming they have super bees that are 3 deeps brood under 8 supers. I can't do that with my bees. I can keep them treatment free, though, and I'm not trying to pull anyone's leg. I'm sure most folks wouldn't be happy with my bees in a commercial setting. They probably wouldn't do well for numerous reasons, namely honey production. I get some honey off of them on occasion, but nowhere near what someone looking to make a living from them would be happy with. Me, I love my bees. They compliment my style of beekeeping. That's the truth.

    This has been/still is my problem with tf/VSH/etc. I tried it. I went from honey yields of 75-100# per hive to 2 PINTS per hive. Personally I am not altruistic here. I keep bees for honey. On my budget I cannot afford bees who don't even support themselves let alone me. I could not make resistant stock work in a self-supporting apiary. There has to be another answer. But I know I am not gonna be the one to find it--not in my tiny yard--so I stopped looking for pie in the sky and went back to making honey.

    JMO

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper and Rusty's Bees.

  5. #64
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Tsawwassen, BC, Canada
    Posts
    527

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i believe this is where randy is coming from, and it appears what he is up against isn't so much that progress can't be made with respect to breeding more mite resistant bees as it is that for most beekeepers it's just a whole lot easier to kill the mites and not worry about it.

    Speaking as a lowly sideliner, and teacher of new beekeepers, what I see on the front lines is access neither to superior bees nor effective mite treatment.

    Our club on the border has Canadian members...who can pretty much only source New Zealand Carniolans, which have demostrated abysmal Varroa tolerance...and USA members, whose packages last year were a horror show. Most of our mentoring calls are to beekeepers whose bees are being eaten alive by mites.

    Because the TF flypaper is very successful in trapping new-bees, who suffer through a few earnest years of raising mite bombs then give up or refine their technique to reflect our very bee-dense locale, we have huge mite issues. Those are exacerbated by the annual influx of mobile pollination bees to local blueberry fields.

    Whenever I teach or give a talk, there are attendees who just do not believe that at least in our area, TF at best is a master level enterprise with very different outcomes (I know of no TF beekeepers in my area who has bees that are productive in the traditional sense...producing a good honey crop and abundant population).

    Entirely by coincidence we are working on a bee breeding program to launch this year, 2017 (Dr. Oliver and Michael Palmer have been kindly advisors).

    There is a deep hunger out there for not just better bees, but bees that will actually thrive and behave as bees should. We already know we can breed better queens than we can buy...probably just a function of superior larval nutrition. We want to make better queens available to all our area beekeepers, thereby improving our DCA contingent, which presently is largely those NZ Carniolans. Because we are somewhat isolated from surrounding pools of bees, we think we have a decent chance of impacting our local gene pool.

    Meanwhile we treat as much as we have to and as little as possible, depending heavily on OA and FA.

    In the end, I think the answer will be found in Varroa research. We all need to lobby for more funding for Varroa research.
    Last edited by WesternWilson; 12-26-2016 at 04:06 PM.

  6. #65
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    boone county indiana
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    I am excited about resistant stock. I am equally interested in his research on oxalic dissolved in glycerin that he describes in his other article in the January issue.

  7. #66

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Harry Vanderpool and Beemandan beekeepers and others who are convinced it can't be done.

    Nor has or would anyone ever hear me say it can't be done. I said that I believe, after thirty years of effort, we've teased all of the mite control possible from the existing honey bee gene pool. And, in my opinion, the result is not ready for prime time. Maybe I'm a bit like Harry in that regard. We need to look somewhere else for the solution i.e. thinking outside the box.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  8. #67
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Still the problem is deeper. I predict almost 0 success with migratory operations and operations with exposure to migratory operations. Without some ecological system stability, there will be challenge after challenge, big bee kill after big bee kill. If its not one thing, it will be another. Beekeepers are fighting ecological gravity with this industrial model.

  9. #68

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    Beekeepers are fighting ecological gravity with this industrial model.
    Pretty much true for humanity. People crowded elbow to elbow throughout urban settings worldwide. On buses, autos, airplanes and trains people are migratory. Lumped together in school classrooms, offices and stores. Not much ecological stability anywhere today.

    All we can do is make the most of what we have...as beekeepers or ordinary humans....in my opinion.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  10. #69
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,146

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    sounds like lharder is the one who is convinced 'it can't be done'. i forget the statistic, but i believe that it is somewhere upwards of 95% of all bee colonies in the u.s. are produced and managed for commercial migratory operations.

    those folks work hard to make their living and deserve just as much opportunity to do so as any the rest of us. i would be the last in line in terms of making demands on them for the sake of my little 20 hive operation.

    but in the longer run, it is just as much if not more so in the interest of the big outfits to see some progress made with respect to bees getting better at dealing with mites, and with all due respect i think most of them realize that.

    we'll have to see what randy has in mind about getting "serious about dealing with varroa", and to what degree the industry is motivated to engage in a renewed effort. there's no doubt it's a tough nut to crack, hopefully open minds and a willingness to work toward making some progress will prevail.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #70
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,740

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    This is looking a bit like a circular firing squad!

    I think the problem is not with the bee, but most of the noble effort is being exerted on changing the bee! That, at least here on this forum, is the focus. If I had unlimited funds to allocate to solving the root problem I would be redirecting research towards messing up the mites game! He is the bad guy that rode into town.
    Frank

  12. #71
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Bedford County, PA USA
    Posts
    232

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Lets hope that whatever happens does not follow the whole Monsanto GMO model. Sort of goes like this....Where one company would patent the genes of the new mite resistant drone or queen and the offspring are genetically incapable of making queen cells. So you end up needing to buy a new mite resistant queen from the company with the patent, to replace one that died or swarmed. Guaranteed revenue for the patent holder, bad news for queen breeders. Within a few generations the mite resistant drones will be spreading around their designer genes to the general population. Competition eliminated. Apis Monopoly.

  13. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Louisville, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    1,528

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    This has been/still is my problem with tf/VSH/etc. I tried it. I went from honey yields of 75-100# per hive to 2 PINTS per hive. Personally I am not altruistic here. I keep bees for honey. On my budget I cannot afford bees who don't even support themselves let alone me. I could not make resistant stock work in a self-supporting apiary. There has to be another answer. But I know I am not gonna be the one to find it--not in my tiny yard--so I stopped looking for pie in the sky and went back to making honey.

    JMO

    Rusty
    This is the challenge. The beekeeping community/industry cannot just stop everything while we find a resistant bee. We must work within the system to find an answer, while simultaneously continuing to produce honey and pollinate and produce more bees.
    It's a long road but it can be done.

    But this thread makes me think back.......when the mites first hit us here they caused astounding devastation. 100% losses, 95% losses. Bee yards I had driven by for years, Gone. It was like Armageddon.
    And it was that way for awhile. A bee yard would appear only to disappear a couple years later.

    Now I see bee yards popping up all around.... and remaining. My immediate neighborhood has at least 4 of us keeping bees.
    There is a fellow I know who is working to develop his own line of "survivors".

    Overall things are getting better. We are making slow progress. Agonizingly slow for those of us who will likely not live to see the end solution, but hey, progress is progress.

    Long term things look really positive to me. Cheer up everybody!

  14. #73
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    DFW area, TX, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    Thumbs Up Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    I love to keep honey bees in my backyard. And I won't let this issue ruin it for me. Seems like this thread is winding down, so I wanted to contribute before it is completely dead.

    Killing or managing a bug living on a honey bee is no small problem. The Russians, (a culture of very smart scientists), capable European Scientists, and Scientists around the world have been working on this for generations.

    It was one study, covering old ground in a new way, that revealed the diet of the mite. Other scientists, (and scientists in training), are going to replicate old studies and approach established knowledge from fresh, new angles...They will find something new eventually. We have discarded many treatment fads along the way. New methods to treat are always in the pipeline.

    In my small backyard bee yard, and using Integrated Pest Management practices, I've tried Carpenter's queens, Pol-Line queens, a VP breeder, various VSH suppliers and BeeWeaver queens. Still grafting from the last line of VP queens, Carpenter's excellent producing hives died out after three years, hives headed by BeeWeaver queens seem to lose their mojo after three years as well. So, I'm just buying the best queens I can get and grafting from the best producers while keeping high populations of drones in the hive with drone frames, (attempting to influence feral hives in the neighborhood), and giving queens to beekeepers within three miles.

    I'm treatment free at heart, but don't hesitate to use OAV and want to get smart about FA. I'm open to new ideas.

    I'm happy with that. I will do what I can here in my world and hope that more breakthroughs are coming in the mite wars.

    Maybe I'll drive by Squarepeg's house one day and bring home a few queens.

    P.S. I wish beekeepers would remove from youtube those videos of old and unproductive, (read misleading), videos of ineffective mite treatments. The misinformation on youtube and online forums increases unnecessary difficulty & failure for new folks to the hobby.

    JMO
    ...We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are...

  15. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    6,585

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Arnie, couldn't agree more. Despite all the negativity, the industry marches on and no crop has suffered because of a lack of available pollination.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  16. #75
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,740

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by Lburou View Post
    j<Snip>

    P.S. I wish beekeepers would remove from youtube those videos of old and unproductive, (read misleading), videos of ineffective mite treatments. The misinformation on youtube and online forums increases unnecessary difficulty & failure for new folks to the hobby.

    JMO
    For some reason some people are drawn to the most "far out" and mystical promises! It is hard to help them.
    Frank

  17. #76
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,146

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    this has been an excellent thread folks, and i very much appreciate all of the replies.

    i mentioned in the op having purchased the online version of the american bee journal. i've no regrets, and for those of you who enjoy looking at diverse points of view on this and other topics subscribing would be worth considering.

    i'm now going through the back issues, and just finished reading an article written by m.e.a. mcneil entitled "bomb vs. bond, treatment/nontreatment: the twain do meet, and let us count the ways - part 1"

    the author quotes many of the industries leading researchers and provides a good editorial. i saw many of the views expressed in this thread represented there.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #77
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    1,222

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    "BWeaver found 5 percent of their bees had what it takes. How would you feel if you found that 5 percent of your colonies were able to make it without treatments?"

    Fusion, I'm always somewhat uncomfortable when I read comments such as the one above. Would you mind expanding upon that statement and share with us your first hand insight into bee breeding operations such as those currently practiced by Danny Weaver. I always thought that I was fairly well read when it comes to queen breeders adept at overcoming varroa complications. Do you mind sharing with us exactly how BWeaver has found the goose that lay's the golden eggs? Would you happen to know what percentage of colonies they lose every year that could be attributed to mites. Do they still run a few thousand colonies? Thanks for sharing.
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  19. #78
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Suffolk Co, NY, USA
    Posts
    3,625

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    This is looking a bit like a circular firing squad!

    I think the problem is not with the bee, but most of the noble effort is being exerted on changing the bee! That, at least here on this forum, is the focus. If I had unlimited funds to allocate to solving the root problem I would be redirecting research towards messing up the mites game! He is the bad guy that rode into town.
    Yup.
    Keep an eye on the vanEngelsdorp lab then as they have members focusing on the root of the problem. Studying the parasite is no easy task and certainly not in the realm of amateur biologists, which is why so much of the talk is about how to empower the host.

  20. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,106

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    If I had unlimited funds to allocate to solving the root problem I would be redirecting research towards messing up the mites game!
    Isn't that what the RNAi project is trying to do?

  21. #80
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    5,459

    Default Re: randy oliver article in january '17 abj

    I've been interested in this thread but stayed out because of Christmas. It looks like some have taken a similar approach as I have, bringing in lots of genetics and see how they pan out. I will post later as it's picture day and maybe see if I can start a sticky on how I'm approaching looking for resistance and how it's coming along. I've pretty much committed to taking up II to help establish the genetics better if the potential is there, but like most things these days I'm thinking a hybrid approach may be best. I really think you need to develop at least two traits in separate lines and then combine them to have a chance in areas of high density bee populations. The problem will still always come down to how to maintain these traits in daughter queens but perhaps if you can establish and maintain some tolerance or resistance for a couple years, the mite populations may decrease enough to help alleviate some of the pressure.

Page 4 of 19 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •