Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany - Page 5
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  1. #81

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    THE JOURNAL KEEPING

    If you are new to beekeeping or going treatment free or both the advise is to keep a journal about your hives.
    The state the bee colonies are in changes very quickly and your estimation after only one check could lead you to the wrong decisions resistance concerned.

    Here is an example of a record:

    Example:

    Volk? Name or number of colony

    Datum: date of checking
    Standort,Abstand: location and how far away other beekeepers are
    Königin: queen, when raised and her origin

    Datum Ableger: date of split making
    Wetter: weather
    Tracht: flow

    Aggression: do they defend their hive ( against you or other insects)
    Propolisqualität: quality of propolis, sticky and much propolis means defense again sickness
    Wabensitz: do they go on working while you have the frames pulled? gentleness
    Weiselzellen?: do they build swarm or supersedure cells?


    Brutwabenanzahl: how many brood combs?

    Brutpause?: did they make a brood break?
    Brutqualität: quality of brood , meaning shotgun or not and how much brood on brood combs
    Futtersaft: how much royal jelly, very important because if they are swimming the nourishment is good
    Brut/Honiganteil: how much brood and honey on brood comb, a sign for natural behavior


    Eintrag: if they forage enough
    Bruthygiene Drohnen: VSH in drone brood, this is a sign they are regressed because they only do this if they are mite resistant
    Bruthygiene Arbeiter: same in worker brood, this all hives do sooner or later

    Wabenbau 4.9: how small cells are build

    Drohnen?: do they breed drones the whole year? Good trait, varroa trap
    Varroen auf Bienen: do you see many mites on bees, you can estimate the infestation
    Def. Bienen: defect bees present? DWV
    Zittern: trembling? CPV

    Gefüttert: how much you had to feed
    Zargenanzahl: how many deeps and supers you use
    Verschiedenes: different things you noticed
    This is one of mine, I do this on every check:
    Datum: 28.06.2016
    Standort,Abstand: Wildpark, 2km
    Königin: 3.Generation aus 86m

    Datum Ableger: Mai 2016 aus Weiselzellen der 2. Generation
    Wetter: warm. sonnig
    Tracht: gut

    Aggression: sehr mild
    Propolisqualität: viel, normal klebrig
    Wabensitz: sehr gut
    Weiselzellen?: nein


    Brutwabenanzahl: 4

    Brutpause?: ja
    Brutqualität: sehr gut
    Futtersaft: sehr gut
    Brut/Honiganteil:eine Honigwabe aus 86ma/a gegeben


    Eintrag: wenig, hatte wenig Flugbienen
    Bruthygiene Drohnen: nein
    Bruthygiene Arbeiter: nein

    Wabenbau 4.9:gut

    Drohnen?: wenig Bau
    Varroen auf Bienen: nein
    Def. Bienen: nein
    Zittern: nein

    Gefüttert: siehe oben
    Zargenanzahl: 1
    Verschiedenes
    This helps you to see the mistakes you did as a newbie in the past and to see in future which are your best hives.
    It helps you to learn how the local circumstances influence the bee colony´s state.
    Last edited by 1102009; 12-12-2016 at 03:20 AM.

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  3. #82
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Joelton, TN
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    192

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Keeping my journal. Some recommend a piece of duct tape on the inside of the outer cover & - sharpie. Sounds like a good idea but I'm not that large (lol) an operation yet. I can't see spending time writing all info on the inside of the lid when I should be getting in & getting out ASAP. When I've more experience & more colonies, yes.

  4. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,026

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    redhawkIf nothing else Michael palmer has inspection vidios that show his just using tape on the out side to write on and a brick that if he stands it on end he knows he has to take some kind of action and if it is flat he knows he is good.Cheersgww
    zone 5b

  5. #84
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Joelton, TN
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    192

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    I've seen that, gww. My luck I'd knock the brick over on my way out & it would rain before I returned & it would wash my notes out. I like the brick warning idea though. Thought about using surveyors tape/flagging instead. Easier to carry in my tool bag. I don't think a case of tape weighs one brick. My must "To Do" note on the inside & a loop or two flagging around my of weight & I'll feel safe.

  6. #85

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Thanks for taking part, gww.

    I use a laminated chart list, writing with eddying, which is in my toolbox. No wind will take it and I can use it as a smoker base. I don´t care about propolis then. I can leave it in the rain.
    At home I push the informations into PC and think about it some more. Then I erase the writing with alcohol so I can use it again.
    The hives lids are marked so I know which colony inhabits it.

    Red, I started this with my first hive, when I had only one. Took pictures of comb, too, and enlarged them on PC. I used a brush to clear the bees from comb or tossed them off to look at the brood.
    It did not make the bees very happy but I had to learn. And the bees showed my everything. Now it´s one look and i know what´s going on.
    The appearance of brood will tell you everything about the conditions the bees are in. I look with the help of a magnifying glass.

    This allows me today to do a thoroughly check of one hive in 20-30 minutes. I see eggs at once. Eggs and the amount of geleé royal are the most important parameters I look for. Formerly I needed one hour and checked once a week.
    Now I check after watching the entrance boards and sporadic. As less as possible. More in spring.
    Last edited by 1102009; 12-13-2016 at 11:50 PM.

  7. #86
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Joelton, TN
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    192

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Good advise, Sybille. I use a camera, too. I have a digital 35 that I have to practice setting up for hive inspects, too. I've been taught that over 30 minutes in the hive you've been in long enough. I don't waste time searching for the queen. If there's eggs & young larvae, she's there. If her pattern is good I'm checking for pest & disease. I caught wax moth before it got out of control. Had to freeze 4 frames with minor damage. But I cleaned the frames by hand first just so I would know what it felt like, not just what it looked like.
    I used a magnifying glass but got some jeweler's mag glasses. Wear them under the veil, hands free, with several magnification levels. They even have lights so if I'm at a bad angle or a cloud rolls in I've got an option.
    I would like to see your laminate chart setup. I have my colonies number as well, even though it totals 1. :-)

  8. #87

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Sounds great, red.
    Do you have a link? I would like to have those mag glasses.

    This is the chart I made for myself:
    clip chart.jpg
    Last edited by 1102009; 12-14-2016 at 02:45 AM.

  9. #88
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
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    Joelton, TN
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    192

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    I like that, Sybille. You can buy the glasses at amazon & other places. It won't copy & paste but here's a photo of the amazon page.

    IMG_0165.JPG

  10. #89

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Chill and heal:
    I like the bees nesting with Jesus in this video which is a homage to the honeybees.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puqBRyp6Ubs

  11. #90
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    Jun 2016
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    Joelton, TN
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    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany


  12. #91
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    Portugal
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    1,298

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    "I want to keep bees tf and without special queens surrounded by treated bees and see if other facts like managements, comb, feed and such have any influence on resistance."

    I transferred our conversation to here because it is the natural place. Do you have any plans to evaluate / control the impact of the variables you mentioned (managements, comb, feed,…) or do you think it is not necessary or executable?

  13. #92

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    "I want to keep bees tf and without special queens surrounded by treated bees and see if other facts like managements, comb, feed and such have any influence on resistance."

    I transferred our conversation to here because it is the natural place. Do you have any plans to evaluate / control the impact of the variables you mentioned (managements, comb, feed,…) or do you think it is not necessary or executable?
    By using trial and error. I have my own thoughts about beekeeping but my experience is still limited.
    I´m just now reading all I can about the bee`s behaviors to adapt my managements to the bees and find a way to do justice to the bees but also be a keeper.

    As you can see I´m keeping records and I´m working with other tf and treating beekeepers. So more and more I want to exclude the managements which don´t work.

  14. #93
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    Portugal
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    1,298

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    I wish the best of luck to you. Networking in this and other forums is an opportunity that today offers us. I'm following your thread closely.
    Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with us.

  15. #94

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    I wish the best of luck to you. Networking in this and other forums is an opportunity that today offers us. I'm following your thread closely.
    Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with us.
    Oh! Many thanks for your kind words, Eduardo! And welcome to this thread! I look forward to your questions and comments.

  16. #95
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    7,861

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    What you called trial and error, I like to call it my little bee experiment.
    During this process I've learned a lot about the bees from my own experiences. Somehow they are
    still alive and thriving so maybe nothing has gone wrong that the bees cannot recover yet.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  17. #96

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    You are a successful beekeeper then, beepro , and I wish you all the best for your future proceeding.

    I hope I will not make too many mistakes myself. so I have some survivors always.

  18. #97
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
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    Joelton, TN
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    192

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    I took beekeeping is all about trial & error. What works great for one may or may not work for another. We've been led to believe that in our daily life if it works ok.....so now let's work on that "new & improved" version. When it comes to tf bees, it's a long time experiment.

  19. #98

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    This sad day found me with my carni beeyard crashing.

    Four more deadouts, one elgon F1, which froze on a honey bound comb.
    The others: two varroa damages, one a "resistant" original queen and the other the hive which never defended against wasps ( queen 2015). Dead brood patches with pupae cells opened, not ready to hatch.
    One I don´t know the reason why , the same as the first deadout. No mite sassafras, no damaged bees, a dead queen, almost no bees left.

    My consolation today was the AMM bee yard with all colonies alive so far.

    I learned:
    - never again overwinter on two deeps ( all dead ones except the elgons were on two deeps in this yard)
    - never again make splits the way I did ( with queen and capped brood as a strong split)
    - never again fear they would not have enough honey for winter ( found them full of stores, honey and pollen), rather watch if they have too much before closing up
    - close up later, check once again late fall
    - resistant queens are not automatically resistant at a new location
    - the AMM are more resistant so far than the carnis

    9 hives left
    Last edited by 1102009; 12-18-2016 at 10:32 AM.

  20. #99
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    10,167

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    My consolation today was the AMM bee yard with all colonies alive so far.
    very interesting sibylle...

    researchers here have found surviving feral colonies out in the woods whose mitochondrial dna is amm, in other words these colonies can trace their queen lines back to a time before the italian and carnica bees were brought in here. the conclusion was that these amm bees were not completely wiped out when varroa invaded, and therefore they are showing some degree of natural resistance.

    i submitted samples of my bees for mitochondrial dna testing a couple of years ago and the results came back 'c1', which means that my bees trace their queen lines back to the italian and carnica strains.

    more sophisticated testing would have to be done to see if there are any amm genes mixed in with the hybridized feral strain that now populates my area. i hope to be able to get that done some day.

    thank you for the report. our hope is that you end up with some strong survivor colonies to propagate from next season. my opinion is that you are better off making queens from your own proven stock bringing in more from elsewhere.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  21. #100
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
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    Morro Bay, California, USA
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    2,248

    Default Re: Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany

    Research has correlated resistance to DWV and mite assay counts with freeze-kill hygienic tests.

    (note: I have edited my notes on this image)

    The research is clear. Until FKR response (a proxy for hygienic behavior) exceeds 95% -- the behavior has virtually no effect on DWV and year-over-year increase in mite loading.

    What happens in F1 daughters should be obvious -- any trait is expressed variably in this generation, but as a *mean* the response will revert towards the wild normative.

    Daughters of highly selected queens are just a little bit better (on average) than the background.

    Being "just a little bit better" is no good at all --- the data in the graphic above shows that until the response is maximal- you don't get any survival benefit.

    Small scale backyard "breeding" will by **mathematical necessity** always return towards the norm. And that means reaching the 95% percentile is a delusional goal.

    Source: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...IBRA.1.53.5.10
    Last edited by JWChesnut; 12-18-2016 at 11:52 AM.

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