Band heater vaporizer. - Page 45
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  1. #881
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    1,720

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    The controller used is the Mypin TA4 RNR which is getting very difficult to find at reasonable prices The RNR part means there are 2 relay output one switching the band heater and the other is for an alarm. The other ones SSR or SNR are for outputs to solid state relays which is fine but the relat cost and now you would require more space in the controller enclosure. You could try the Inkbird with the relay output. You will also require a type K thermocouple

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  3. #882
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Southwest Michigan
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Thanks for the clarification johno. FYI, the RNR is now in stock at Amazon with limited supplies. Currently $25.99 US.

  4. #883
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Southwest Michigan
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    9

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    If anyone is struggling with the fabrication of the heating chamber, I made a couple extra. 1 1/2 copper pipe with 3/16 tube . pm me.

  5. #884
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
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    250

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    At this point, having performed band heater vaporization, I am still curious as to why this treatment doesn't kill more bees or damage the colony in general.

    Occasionally I'll see maybe 10 dead bees after a 2g OA treatment.

    I have noticed that the stream of OA directly in front (within 1-2 inches) of the output tube is very hot, and occasionally molten OA spews from the tube. If anything is located 1 inch or so in front of that stream of OAV, it gets coated with molten OA.

    After noticing that any solid object in front of the stream of OAV gets coated with molten OA, I have made sure to take extra precautions that no frame, or any obstruction is located in front of the output pipe.

    I was surprised to see how much of the OA will get "wasted" as a pile of solidified molten OA. Occurs if the obstruction is within around 1-2 inch of the output pipe. If the stream of OAV is obstructed (approx 1-2 inch) and not given enough space to cool down in temperature. Appears to be approximately 1-2 inches of "free" space required for the temperature to cool enough so that OA doesn't condense as a molten glob.

    I can test "molten globbing" by vaporizing 2g of OAV and aiming the tube 1-2'' away from an unfinished wooden surface (not painted). For some reason, if the surface is finished or painted, it doesn't "glob" as much.
    Last edited by username00101; 10-02-2019 at 07:37 AM.

  6. #885
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    1,720

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    I think you will find that the condensing water vapor from the OA mixes with the OA crystals when it exits the small tube and this gives the impression of molten OA. The temperature of the vapor leaving the tube cools rapidly and I have had the vapor directed into the back of my left arm within 2 to 3 inches away without any discomfort from the heat. I sometimes wonder if some OA is drier than some others.

  7. #886
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    AUBURN IN.
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    248

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    MR JOHNO how do U keep your [[ OA ]] DRY when U open the container --I have put in it into double plastic bags and then in a QUART JAR with a lid it still seams to draw moister

  8. #887
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    1,720

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    I hear you allniter, I think it is worst in those hot and humid summer months and seems drier once the temperature cools. Most of the testing I did was during winter and I did not seem to have that exess moisture problem then. I have noticed the build up of OA residue near the places where I insert the vaporizer which I never saw anything of when I was doing winter tests, but then it was drier air and I was working with mostly just 2 grams of OA and timing the sublimation. When treating I have mostly used about 4 grams per dose in humid conditions so that is where the difference might lie.

  9. #888
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    AUBURN IN.
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    248

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    I know the outside temp makes a different in time and OA moister and the way your VAP works

  10. #889
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,530

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    interesting thought about moisture
    I have some of those desiccant packs laying around, I think I'll store my OA container in a ziplock bag with those

  11. #890
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Beaverton, OR
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    4

    Default

    I've been reading many of the discussions about heating oxalic acid, and think it's time to comment. There's far too much 'kitchen-sink' chemistry going on, and much misinformation.

    1) It's not vaporization (liquid to gas), it's sublimation (solid to gas). It's neither smoke nor vapor.

    2) Before playing around with it, do some homework......get a full description of its composition, toxicity and thermal decomposition from a chemical reference guide (NOT off of YouTube).

    3) Know what personal protective equipment is required to control exposure to this substance. It can do serious damage to your eyes, lungs and mucous membranes.

    4) Heating dihydrous oxalic acid above 375 degrees Fahrenheit causes it to decompose into formic acid and carbon dioxide. Heating it to between 209 and 360 degrees Fahrenheit causes sublimation (ambient pressure dependent). Heating it to between 140 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit evaporates off any water in the crystals.

    All the aforementioned said, why would you want to buy or use any device that heats above 375 degrees Fahrenheit? You are exposing the bees to an unknown concentration and mixture of substances.

  12. #891
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    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Beeverton before you go on too much about heating oxalic acid perhaps you should read up about a phenomenon called latent heat and then maybe you will find that appliances that heat up above the sublimation temperature do not stay at the set temperature once the oxalic comes into contact with the hot vessel. Do you think all these things you have been bringing to our attention have not been taken into consideration with hours of testing to prove the concepts of these devices. Let me also enlighten you to the fact that this sublimated gas does not go much further than the end of the nozzle before condensing into fine crystal form which can be seen on a cool winters morning with the sun low on the horizon by the twinkling of the crystals in the sunlight. Last I checked formic or carbon dioxide do not show in the sunlight. Hey I got off the banana boat a long time ago and have been exposing my bees to this kind of treatment for the last 6 to 8 years with below 10% over winter losses since grandad fell off the bus, so at the end of the day maybe that is why beekeepers use devices like this.

  13. #892
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Beaverton, OR
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    4

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    Johno,

    I spent 20 years maintaining process control systems that regulated temperature, pressure, flow, voltage, current, pH, etc. I am quite familiar with both their design and operation. All the temperatures and cautionary statements from my previous post were from chemical engineers with whom I worked.

    My main concern is not the viability of these devices or treatments, but the misuse and misinformation about them that is prevalent on social media, and the resulting safety issue. There are scores of videos showing users with absolutely no protection (handling hot components and dodging fumes).

    Because of this, our state's master beekeeping program, unfortunately, decided last year to not encourage new beekeepers to use oxalic acid sublimation as a treatment method because of the risk.

    I think the beekeeping community should and can be more responsible here.

  14. #893
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    4,749

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beeverton View Post
    Johno,

    I spent 20 years maintaining process control systems that regulated temperature, pressure, flow, voltage, current, pH, etc. I am quite familiar with both their design and operation. All the temperatures and cautionary statements from my previous post were from chemical engineers with whom I worked.

    My main concern is not the viability of these devices or treatments, but the misuse and misinformation about them that is prevalent on social media, and the resulting safety issue. There are scores of videos showing users with absolutely no protection (handling hot components and dodging fumes).

    Because of this, our state's master beekeeping program, unfortunately, decided last year to not encourage new beekeepers to use oxalic acid sublimation as a treatment method because of the risk.

    I think the beekeeping community should and can be more responsible here.
    It probably is correct to assume that not all beekeepers have the judgement to safely work close to the line with minimal protective gear. I can identify with JohnO's approach because of his background can pinpoint and tiptoe around the key danger scenarios.

    My personal experiences as an industrial steamfitter and welder has involved numerous safety indoctrinations for working in hazardous conditions involving everything from radioactive to explosive, corrosive and biohazard conditions, but in some situations where only myself is involved and I am intimately familiar with, I can get a bit cavalier with safety. Calculated personal risk I guess you could call it. From a liability angle, if I were wearing a supervisor's hat, I would not dream of directing others to take the same risks.

    I am curious to see what the consensus of opinion is re. OAV
    Frank

  15. #894
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    Dec 2011
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    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Beeverton, I guess my experience with control systems started on the 4th of January 1960. I have also worked in process control in the petrochemical industry maintaining pneumatic and electronic instruments and I have also operated hazardous plants such as the Phillips hydrogen fluoride alkylation plants and others producing and using hydrogen sulphide so I am well aware of working in a dangerous environment however with OAV and yes it is a particle vapor when used in the manner used by beekeepers, the OAV is about as dangerous as water so common sense will tell you not to stand around and inhale the stuff and if you cant figure that out you should not really be beekeeping. Quite frankly in a closed off area the only mask I have used is a 3M paper mask which I started using way back when I tried to find the smell of formic acid in the OAV plume to see if there was any truth in the breaking down of OA into formic and other products and through the paper mask I could smell neither the OA or any formic but could see the plume twinkling in the morning sunlight. I do not place too much weight on some of these programs that are putting out all sorts of eroneous information anyhow as most of them will tell you that OA is only good for broodless colonies. The most important thing about using OAV is to know the product and its hazards and work with it in your safety comfort zone, dont work in wet conditions and mind your eyes also learn to control your breathing and just walk away.

  16. #895
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    250

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    Beeverton, I guess my experience with control systems started on the 4th of January 1960. I have also worked in process control in the petrochemical industry maintaining pneumatic and electronic instruments and I have also operated hazardous plants such as the Phillips hydrogen fluoride alkylation plants and others producing and using hydrogen sulphide so I am well aware of working in a dangerous environment however with OAV and yes it is a particle vapor when used in the manner used by beekeepers, the OAV is about as dangerous as water so common sense will tell you not to stand around and inhale the stuff and if you cant figure that out you should not really be beekeeping. Quite frankly in a closed off area the only mask I have used is a 3M paper mask which I started using way back when I tried to find the smell of formic acid in the OAV plume to see if there was any truth in the breaking down of OA into formic and other products and through the paper mask I could smell neither the OA or any formic but could see the plume twinkling in the morning sunlight. I do not place too much weight on some of these programs that are putting out all sorts of eroneous information anyhow as most of them will tell you that OA is only good for broodless colonies. The most important thing about using OAV is to know the product and its hazards and work with it in your safety comfort zone, dont work in wet conditions and mind your eyes also learn to control your breathing and just walk away.
    I too can attest that the 3M paper particulate mask is sufficient.
    Last edited by username00101; 10-11-2019 at 10:50 AM.

  17. #896
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Beaverton, OR
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    4

    Default

    I'm involved with an ongoing research project at the OSU Bee Lab quantifying the effect of oxalic acid sublimation treatments on eggs and uncapped brood. This year's data is currently being analyzed from field testing, and it will be interesting to see what, if any, affect exists.

  18. #897
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    1,720

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Beeverton, that research will be interesting as most beekeepers have percieved no real effect on colonies with multiple treatments of OAV. However there is always a possibiity of unseen effects it should also be pointed out that so far all of the other known treatments available do have negative effects on colonies and whats more at quite a price, whereas at least if we do some damge with OAV that we are not aware of at least it comes at a reasonable price.

  19. #898
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Scott county, Arkansas, Usa
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    1,446

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beeverton View Post
    I'm involved with an ongoing research project at the OSU Bee Lab quantifying the effect of oxalic acid sublimation treatments on eggs and uncapped brood. This year's data is currently being analyzed from field testing, and it will be interesting to see what, if any, affect exists.
    I hope you post your findings on BeeSource.

    Thanks,
    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  20. #899
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    250

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    I'm suspicious as to why this band heating vaporization doesn't do more damage to the bees.


    My observations are clear: hives appear very healthy, and the ones that had high mite counts were certainly NOT healthy.

    So I can only conclude, at this point, that OAV does nothing harmful.

  21. #900
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
    Posts
    25

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    A lot of beekeepers and research scientist agree with you. I plan on a winter treatment, around Christmas, using OAV twice, 14 days apart to eliminate 99.7% of all remaining Varroa. Winter Solstice and I am pretty brood free but if not the second treatment cleans up the hive. Varroa counts are low until Fall, ~Oct 5. I seem to suffer from Varroa Bombs around me and forced int a Varroa War status.

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