Band heater vaporizer. - Page 41
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  1. #801
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Dothan, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    question on thermal coupling wires. are the wires tied together or seperated under fender washer, also my wires a about 3' long do you cut them or just bundle them up?

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  3. #802
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Driggs, Idaho, USA
    Posts
    152

    Default

    I separate mine puting one wire on each side of the bolt. As long as the two wires are very close to the same imput temperature then it should be fine.

  4. #803
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    1,804

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Dott, the thermocouple end where the 2 wires are joined together go between the washer and the copper bowl. You can cut the cable much shorter if you like but you will have to remove the outer covering to get to the inner wires and then you will have to strip off the covering on the 2 wires just leaving maybe 1/4" of the metal conductors exposed which requires a little skill as the conductors are tiny. If you do this the green goes to #7 and the red to #8, if you have enough space in the box where you are putting the mypin controller you could just coil it up and leave the excess in the box If you do cut the cable do not throw it away as you can use it to make more thermocouples for spares or whatever just by stripping off the ends and twisting together the two metal strands.

  5. #804
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Ocala, Florida, USA
    Posts
    623

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    John,
    I did around 60 shots today with the new white caps I got from you this week. No sign or any deterioration or damage to any. I was using all eight in rotation but I liked them. Thanks.

  6. #805
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    1,804

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Thanks for the feedback Barhopper, The supplier seems unreliable but hopefully we can sort something out.

  7. #806
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Douglassville Pa
    Posts
    175

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    John I sent you a PM
    Thanks Chet

  8. #807
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Brooklyn, Connecticut
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    thank you Johno and the others that graciously shared their knowledge so i could complete this project. without your help and showing it was possible i may have never ventured down this path, thank you!

    i enjoy making things beautiful through refinement, here is my take on it.




    the cover i made from polyester body filler, the 3/16" line is steel and i think i would have preferred copper if i had to buy something. i had an issue with it being too long and clogging when the phase change of sublimation dropped the temperature too much to keep oxalic acid suspended in air; currently about 5/8" length. it now works well enough i will not improve it any further. the 1.5" copper pipe was wrapped with fiberglass and coated with some ceramic muffler adhesive i had. the pid controller was about 22$ the band heater came from china for about 4.5 dollars. i removed the t bolt hose clamp with the band heater and used some stainless wire to create a more aesthetic fit with the copper pipe. the 3/16" steel and copper bottom were brazed.

    i think if i had pid controller setup better it could ramp up temperature quicker when phase change occurs and limit maybe even prevent clogging in the 3/16" tubing. some condition, which if temperature is below 330f it ramps under full power and only starts pull back after it gets over 400f or so. it works fine now but if i wanted it perfect i would investigate this more.


    if i was not resourceful i would encourage others to buy the device Johno makes, your bees will thank you.

  9. #808
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Vauxhall, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    358

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Hello all OA Vappers,

    My final (for now) setup:
    OA VAP-110.2.1-2.JPG OA VAP-110.2.1-3.JPG

    The 3/16 hard copper tube goes in about 3/8" above the bottom and curves up to the back side of the bowl. With this, any configuration can be treated, even from the top if the owner plugs the exit end of the tube, fills the tube with fine sand and bends the tube down to a 90 position.

    Joerg K.
    Summ Summ Bienchen summ herum

  10. #809
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Dothan, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    finish my unit using 1 1/4 copper pipe coupler and 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 band heater with a mypin controller. what temp should I be use for a set point? read thur the forms and it varies from 350 to 450. thanks

  11. #810
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Brooklyn, Connecticut
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    you will need to experiment with it to know better how efficient your system is.

    oxalic acid sublimation occurs around 157c/315f. a goal should be to keep the temperature above this temperature for the full treatment, this will limit any clogging in nozzle. if you are doing smaller treatments you may be able to get by with around 380f or so. do some test runs and watch the nozzle end and pid temperature readout while being upwind and mask to be safe. my system requires me to be around 450f and sublimation still drops temperature below 315f. i assume it is an issue with the pid controller settings and/or a less efficient china band heater? it works and i am pleased but it takes maybe 45 seconds for a little over 1 gram; i will time it one day i just recall being disappointed at first when my biological 30 second clock was up and it was still vaporizing.

  12. #811
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,471

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    I notice you mention having done away with the original clamping mechanism of the band. That could cut down heat transfer rate (recovery time), requiring a bit higher maximum set point. Running the vessel a bit hotter initial temperature gives it a bit more thermal "flywheel". My bottom material is nearly 3/16" thick for that purpose. I am a bit slower for initial heat up but the period of the actual discharge is about the 30 second point. Pretty inconsequential details!

    The band heater models sure beat the pants off the wand type for speed. Especially so when doing multiple treatments as necessary when brood is present.
    Frank

  13. #812
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Brooklyn, Connecticut
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    i agree with you good sir, the tension i got with twisting the stainless steel wire did not approach that the the clamp would provide. this may very well be a large part of my inefficiency. at some point if it has to come apart i will do a run with the t bolt clamp and compare. when i was making the determination to ditch the clamp i assembled with the wire and tried to rotate and slide the band heater, i was content with how tight it seemed to have formed the 40mm component to the 1.5" copper pipe. having said that, tighter is better for heat transfer.

    i like the idea you implemented of using a larger heat sink, my bottom is just 1" copper pipe flattened so maybe .060" or so thick. if i can source some thicker copper i will heed your advice when i make a second one for a friend.

    i do think mine heats up in under 3 minutes but never timed it but i also feel confident i can not deliver a treatment in 30 seconds in current configuration.

  14. #813
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    dallas, tx, usa
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Maybe use a band clamp and then wire and take the clamp off. Also, does anyone thing heatsink paste will hold up? the stuff used to transfer heat from a power supply to an aluminum heatsink.

  15. #814
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Brooklyn, Connecticut
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    good idea, it would have resulted in a tighter bond than i have.
    as for the thermal paste. i was going to use copper dust and some brake and caliper grease to make a paste as initial research suggested common pc thermal pastes are almost useless in the 400f environments we need them.

    i did not make the paste as i thought i had a solid bond but at some point i will probably chase efficiency with the time for treatment and find myself adopting much of the advice that has been offered to me.

  16. #815
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,471

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    I have done a few industrial tank heat bands with giant band heaters. We used a heat transfer medium that in that case appeared to be like a thick clay filled tar so it didnt drip. The heat source was glycol solution so much lower than the band heaters we are talking about here though; A different compound would be necessary.

    The procedure was to retension the band retainers after the units were brought up to temperature and expanded. Coil springs under the tension bolts to give some flexibilty for temperature swings. Actually that large application was easier to get good contact and transfer than our "little meth cookers" we are building.
    Frank

  17. #816
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    1,804

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Hi Dott, I set the setpoint on my units to 450F this allows the bowl to have a little heat reservoir as when the sublimation of the OA takes place the latent heat required is more than 275 watts can produce in the 20 to 30 seconds that you take to do a treatment. You will see that if the temperature is around 450F as soon as the OA hits the bottom the temperature drops to around 320F and will slowly climb untill sublimation is complete which is around 400F. However some fumes will still be seen mostly from the condensed OA sticking to the cooler cap. The bowl will also need to be cleaned from time to time as a residue tends to build up around the bottom of the bowl, this is noticeable when the temperature when the OA does not fall to 320F but gets higher and higher the dirtier the bottom of the bowl gets. This residue actually seem to create an insulating barrier between the OA and the copper, however after about 20 treatments a little water and an old toothbrush cleans the bowl in a matter of minutes. Another point is that I test the device by half filling the bowl with water fit in the empty cap and allow the unit to heat up. You should find that as the water gets towards boiling piont excess water and steam will start coming out of the nozzle this will tell you that the cap does not block the outlet and then you can remove the cap and watch the water boil and then check that your temperature is around the 206F area and then you will know that the thermocouple is measuring the temperature to a reasonable accuracy.

  18. #817
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Fulton, GA
    Posts
    54

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Nice TIG weld

    Quote Originally Posted by Biermann View Post
    Hello All Vapo's,

    this is now our final unit after many trials and changes and fine tuning.



    Let me know your comments.

    Cheers, Joerg K.

  19. #818
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Vauxhall, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    358

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Hello All,

    We did some more work and have now two options for the discharge pipe. I call it 'high' or 'low'. The problem came when I had customers wanting to treat through the front, bottom entrance and the 'high' discharge does complicate this.

    As test unit, we cut the top discharge out and filled the hole, drilled a hole close, but not at the bottom and bend a 90 on to the 3/16 tube to come up 1/2 way in the bowel, but at the opposite side from the entrance, close to the wall. This way the OA powder should not drop in to the tube when charged. I had hoped we could weld the 3/16 tube to the bowel, but that spot is a nightmare to reach. It would give a better heat transfer (my opinion, not shared with my welder! who gets slowly frustrated with me and my changes) .

    The bendable 3/16" tube has very little strength and the unit has to be held in place while treating, but I do this from the back too and it only takes 15-20 seconds to do one treatment. I did get some hard copper 3/16 tubing, but it is only .014 wall and it is not much more stable then the flexible tubing. I will see if I can find 3/16 x .125 wall, but what I found does not ship to Canada.

    Here some pictures:
    Laser cut material
    LC-1.JPG
    Different setups
    High to Low-1.JPG
    Low Discharge-1.JPGLow-2.JPGLow Discharge-2.JPG

    Their is no end to the changes as I believe, because one wants to improve the product all the time.

    The on/off switch between the PID & heater allows for resting the unit (or oneself) without having to unplug the unit and it allows for setting the PID without heating the bowel.

    I feel we have a very rugged and reliable unit that will stand-up to hard work and should be very reliable.

    Your comments are welcome as always, Joerg K.
    Summ Summ Bienchen summ herum

  20. #819
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Brooklyn, Connecticut
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    good sir Joerg,
    if you have problems with the 3/16" copper tube holding its shape or breaking, you can not only reduce the mass but also try to move it closer. you have a better idea than i do right now how much effort is required to bend in current setup. there is a chance, just reducing the length can satisfy your goal. i do not recall if it was your input or someone else's about having this tube bending in previous trials, but part of the reason i went minimlastic with my setup was to reduce the stress by way of being compact and minimum weight; naked pid controller which doubles as the handle for device. your device looks industrial but at the expense of asking more out of that joint and copper tubing. i brazed a steel 3/16" tube because it is what i had laying around, it is incredible rigid but not as great with thermal properties.

    you are correct, having the tube in direct contact with the bottom would promote better heat transfer by way of conduction; the more contact the better with the heating metal(outside tube) otherwise we are relying mostly on just the single contact point of the 3/16" tube with larger copper pipe you use.

    i have a healthy understanding how difficult it is to scrap research and development into a product. you have invested lots of time and manufactured parts which drive up the bottom line on the product. this possible confliction, may cause to you run with an idea longer then what may be practical. if your customers are willing to pay for these costs my opinion maters even less.

    may the laws of probability be in your favor!

  21. #820
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Vauxhall, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    358

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Thanks logi...........,

    I wanted to build a rugged unit, where nobody gets electrocuted or burns more areas then necessary and that lasts for years.

    To clarify: I meant the sweep on the 3/16 should be tacked on the bowel wall, not the bottom since the heat band is on the wall, the bottom just extracts heat from the wall mass.

    Myself, I never leave the unit hanging in the treating hole and it should not be an issue since it only takes ~20 seconds to vaporize the OA, but 30-40 seconds to reheat. Now, since my unit is enclosed everywhere, except the front, I set it upside-down on the treated hive while I prep the plug for the next treatment. Moving the spend plug to the next hive and the container with the OA over and filling the plug again takes thus 30-40 seconds and all is good. One person can treat a hive in a minute, 60 in an hour, all inclusive, try that with any other treatment for varroa.

    Joerg K.
    Summ Summ Bienchen summ herum

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