Band heater vaporizer. - Page 46
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  1. #901
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,843

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Most of us that are OA only give the bees a treatment around the end of November, Thanksgiving weekend if you will, and then again at Christmas. Seems to work pretty well for going into Spring with a zero mite count. Bees start brooding again around winter solstice so the idea is to get the last few remaining mites before any cells get capped.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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  3. #902
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    5,203

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Since I treat with OAV exclusively, Iíve found that if I donít do a series of treatments prior to the raising of winter bees, Iíll probably lose the hive.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  4. #903
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    My 14 day elapsed time is from a Univ. of Sussex test report, timing is based on my ocean affected weather, coupled this with drone removal and Varroa counting in the Spring - pretty darn clean. One retired Maine Inspector claimed brooding never stops, I'm in southern RI.

  5. #904

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Madsen View Post
    My parts list with sourcing:
    Parts list:
    44705K89 (McMaster-Carr) (Low-Pressure Aluminum Pipe Fitting, Straight Connector, 1-1/4 NPT Female $4.40
    7280K14 (McMaster-Carr) Threaded Hole Plug, 1-1/4 NPT $4.71
    B073F3SG18 (Amazon) 1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE BARB NIPPLE Blue ALUMINUM FITTING $6.99
    B007IB5D5Q(Amazon) and Heater, 2 In. Dia., 120V, 900 Deg F $40.46
    PC5R-ABT1 (Amazon) Dual Display Manual/Auto-tuning PID Temperature Controller TA4-RNR $23.99
    MHSP1.469/1.750 (Amazon) Silicone Hollow Tapered Plugs - Orange 1.469/1.750 Hollow Silicone Plug, Red-Oxide MOCAP MHSP1.469/1.750 (qty5) $5.27 /ea
    B0797JWQ1R (Amazon) Century Drill and Tool 93201 1/8-27 NPT, 21/64" Tap & Drill Combo
    B00OUS78X0 (Amazon) 2M K Type Mini-Connector Yellow Or Orange Thermocouple Temperature Probe Sensor Measure Range -50~700įC (Pack of 5) $2.53/ea
    (Home Depot) deep electrical box
    (Home Depot) box cover plate
    (Home Depot) 2" pipe hange
    (Home Depot) grounded electrical cord
    Thank you Alex for the info!
    I was not able to get a hold of the PID, so I picked up this one...
    Inkbird ITC-106RH Controller
    https://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Tempe...1504263&sr=8-3

    I also wanted to be able to easily remove the chamber to be able to clean it.

    vap 1.jpgvap 2.jpgvap 3.jpg vap 4.jpg

  6. #905

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beeverton View Post
    Johno,

    I spent 20 years maintaining process control systems that regulated temperature, pressure, flow, voltage, current, pH, etc. I am quite familiar with both their design and operation. All the temperatures and cautionary statements from my previous post were from chemical engineers with whom I worked.

    My main concern is not the viability of these devices or treatments, but the misuse and misinformation about them that is prevalent on social media, and the resulting safety issue. There are scores of videos showing users with absolutely no protection (handling hot components and dodging fumes).

    Because of this, our state's master beekeeping program, unfortunately, decided last year to not encourage new beekeepers to use oxalic acid sublimation as a treatment method because of the risk.

    I think the beekeeping community should and can be more responsible here.


    That is strange because I was just up at the OSU bee lab on Friday getting a demonstration on the process of vaporizing as well as the dribble method as part of the master beekeeping program. The study that was just completed on open brood after the vaporizing process was mentioned and although they aren't ready to release results yet they indicated that there was very limited brood harmed in the process. They used a standard wand for the demo but indicated that with reading/following the directions and use of the proper PPE they felt that the process was safe with minimal exposure to vapor since the hive was closed up.
    Last edited by Rogue26; 10-20-2019 at 03:10 PM.

  7. #906
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Beaverton, OR
    Posts
    6

    Default

    The decision to not teach oxalic acid sublimation as a treatment method for new beekeepers was made last year (because of safety liability concerns). The program administrators and advisors may have reconsidered it since then, as long as the safety issues were properly addressed.

  8. #907
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    I have been using OAV since it was approved. I have researched it heavily especially EU and British papers, etc. Unfortunately fear drives a lot of opinions versus facts. I have managed to OAV a hive, on average, at the rate of 12 -13 minutes per hive as well as weigh my hives at the same time. I am up on the learning curve using the Varrox unit, winter treatments, supers-off with all hives on my little farm and a John Deere for carrying my battery. I have adopted using a rachet strap on my hives with a wet rag at the entrance. Suddenly I realized I no longer have "leaks", etc. (I have yet to cough my guts out.) I have never seen in 4 years any damage to a hive. In fact we have treated a hive with multiple OAV treatments as it was loaded by a Varroa bomb and a brood break while it raised an emergency cells queen, got mated and started laying (hive was saved and over-wintered ). Check out Univ of Sussex England for field treatment studies, Italy and Switzerland in reference to "contamination" and Germany for a user safety report. I gave up on finding an explanation via USA - Canada info paths as to why you cannot OAV with supers on but formic is OK. No money in selling OA, I guess, thus no support. I am still collecting and learning information on using OAV efficiently. Winter OAV treatment is a huge improvement in Varroa management as it eliminates the need for treatments until supers are off in the early Fall. I intend to teach my grandson some beekeeping and use of OAV next season.

  9. #908
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    1,740

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    My my Robert, if you think it is safe and easy with a varrox vaporizer wait until you use a band heater vaporizer through a 1/4" hole and treat each hive in under a minute. when I treat my hives I rarely wear a veil and use only a 3M paper mask when treating hives in an enclosed room. OAV is really bad stuff like water, if you breathe in water you could die.

  10. #909
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    282

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    I have been using OAV since it was approved. I have researched it heavily especially EU and British papers, etc. Unfortunately fear drives a lot of opinions versus facts. I have managed to OAV a hive, on average, at the rate of 12 -13 minutes per hive as well as weigh my hives at the same time. I am up on the learning curve using the Varrox unit, winter treatments, supers-off with all hives on my little farm and a John Deere for carrying my battery. I have adopted using a rachet strap on my hives with a wet rag at the entrance. Suddenly I realized I no longer have "leaks", etc. (I have yet to cough my guts out.) I have never seen in 4 years any damage to a hive. In fact we have treated a hive with multiple OAV treatments as it was loaded by a Varroa bomb and a brood break while it raised an emergency cells queen, got mated and started laying (hive was saved and over-wintered ). Check out Univ of Sussex England for field treatment studies, Italy and Switzerland in reference to "contamination" and Germany for a user safety report. I gave up on finding an explanation via USA - Canada info paths as to why you cannot OAV with supers on but formic is OK. No money in selling OA, I guess, thus no support. I am still collecting and learning information on using OAV efficiently. Winter OAV treatment is a huge improvement in Varroa management as it eliminates the need for treatments until supers are off in the early Fall. I intend to teach my grandson some beekeeping and use of OAV next season.
    13 minutes per hive?

    I agree with the "contamination" aspect - I wrote a previous thread: https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...y-calculations

    I too have not observed any noticeable detrimental effect from repeated OAV. Despite my expectations to the contrary.

  11. #910
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Yes! My hives are in pairs, pairs are scattered but my JOhn Deere and wagon carry everything. When Fall OAV'ing I find the 2.5 to 3 minute sublimation time is adequate and 3 minutes for the OAV condensate. I cool my wand everytime and clean it. 7 minutes average for moving around and prepping. When I pull the wet rag off, I have yet to see any vapor nor smell OA - maybe a dead bee off and on. I am looking at OAV'ing under the screened bottom for next year. Tidbit observation: After my winter OAV treatments I "find" no need to treat my hives all Spring and Summer; inspections via drone and worker cells. I start treatments after I remove my supers and brood reduction begins. Unfortunately it seems I kill far more Varroa than what was bred internally.
    Last edited by Robert Holcombe; 10-21-2019 at 08:51 AM.

  12. #911
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Powhatan, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    366

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    OAV from under the screen is not a good idea. The metal screen acts as a heat sink and the OA recrystalizes on it instead of going up into the hive. It is one of the reasons that some folks have failure using OA. Unless you look under the hive and see the build-up on the screen directly above the wand you don't realise what happened.

  13. #912
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    282

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Davis View Post
    OAV from under the screen is not a good idea. The metal screen acts as a heat sink and the OA recrystalizes on it instead of going up into the hive. It is one of the reasons that some folks have failure using OA. Unless you look under the hive and see the build-up on the screen directly above the wand you don't realise what happened.
    I agree.

  14. #913
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    I am aware of the issue. I am also wondering how dispersing OAV all over a cold hive actually works. Or do bees move it around quickly while doing their duties from high concentration areas to lower concentration areas (M.Ellis)? Why not do it top down? So many questions!

  15. #914
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Powhatan, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    366

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    It works from top down, key is to have some space for the vapors to disapate as they cool and condense back to the small crystals that we see as the "cloud". I have done some nucs from the top with an 1 1/2 inch spacer for the wand. With a wooden top you get some OA build up above the wand pan but not as much as on the screened bottom, most disperses. More space would be better. The band heater type vaporizers discharge into more open space if the injection openings are placed correctly.

  16. #915
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,809

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    The term vapor as applied to the sublimation of oxalic acid really is probably not an accurate description of what we are blowing into a hive. Sublimation is the transformation of liquified oxalic acid directly to minute solid particles of airborn Oxalic acid monohydrate. No more a vapor than flour dust would be. Any true vapor phase of Oxalic acid is very fleeting and would only be within an inch or so of the heat source.

    The vision of Johno blowing the discharge onto his bare arm rather changed my thought processes. I think I have seen Little John give a much more scientific explanation.
    Frank

  17. #916
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,520

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    The term vapor as applied to the sublimation of oxalic acid really is probably not an accurate description of what we are blowing into a hive.
    Depends. I recently looked up the dictionary definition of 'vapour' ('vapor' in the US) - to see how the word is being employed - and I discovered that it has been assigned to two different meanings.

    When used in a scientific context, vapour refers exclusively to a transitional liquid state - but in everyday usage it refers to both liquid AND solid particles - such that smoke (which of course consists of ultra-fine solid particles) is an example of a vapour when used in this second, everyday sense. e.g. "a substance diffused or suspended in the air, especially one normally liquid or solid."

    So - sublimated OA can either be a vapour or not, depending on whether you have a scientist's hat on your head when you're using the term ...

    "Don't shoot the messenger" ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  18. #917
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,843

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    LJ, look up the definition of aerosol. That is what OAV truly is. From wiki:

    An aerosol is defined as a suspension system of solid or liquid particles in a gas. An aerosol includes both the particles and the suspending gas, which is usually air. ... Donnan presumably first used the term aerosol during World War I to describe an aero-solution, clouds of microscopic particles in air.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  19. #918
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,520

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    LJ, look up the definition of aerosol. That is what OAV truly is. From wiki:
    "Truly is" ? With the source being Wikipedia ?

    The word 'aerosol' was coined in 1919, meaning a solution (in the chemical sense) suspended in Air - hence Aero-Sol. From 1940 onwards the term was assigned additional everyday meanings, including: "a substance enclosed under pressure and released as a fine spray by means of a propellant gas" or even the container itself: "a metal container in which liquids are kept under pressure and forced out in a spray".

    Scientists however define an aerosol as being a suspension of particles in the atmosphere - having both human-made and natural sources.

    And so - despite what Wikipedia may say - we're faced with exactly the same problem as with 'Vapour': scientific usage, and everyday usage.
    'best,
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  20. #919
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,843

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Not arguing the point. I learned about aerosols in my high school chemistry class, let's see, back in 1977. Long before wiki. The classic example for a solid is smoke. Suppose the same can be said for fog, which is certainly a vapor. For something to really be an aerosol, the particles must be small enough to remain in suspension by bouncing off off other molecules. Mists and droplets do not meet this criteria. So, while hair spray and bug spray may be sold as an aerosol, they are not since most of the particles will not remain airborne on their own. 15/15. Your serve.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  21. #920
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    1,740

    Default Re: Band heater vaporizer.

    Maybe we should just call it oxalic acid dust? The fine particles certainly do not remain in suspension and all settle down due to gravity just as dust will settle if there is no agitation. Is dust a vapor? I am sure it cannot be clasified as an aerosol. As far as OAV is concerned we all know what it is but dont know what to call it.

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