Which patties better?
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  1. #1
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    Apr 2015
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    Default Which patties better?

    Was going to get some brood building patties but not sure which to get? Any body use these ones from Mann lake fd374 ( ultra bee) or fd357(bee pro with pro health)? Was the results worth it? Thanks

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    Great Falls Montana
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    I use globalpatties.com product, the fifteen percent pollen pattie. They get eaten by the bees and promote rapid buildup. Call them and find a distributor near you. They work hard to make you happy.

  4. #3
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    Solano, California, USA
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    And why are you wanting to purchase patties?

  5. #4
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishmaster50 View Post
    ....get some brood building patties....Was the results worth it? Thanks

    Honey, it is to make more healthy broods, of course! We all know now the benefit of feeding. I use the mega bee subs before. The bees like them very much with a secret ingredient formula that the local bee store will not disclosed. Now I make my own using chickpeas and brewer's yeast as the base plus other natural locally sourced store ingredients homemade for the extra kick. They like it too! Even when the sub particles fell on the bottom board they will gather there to clean it up. Good for making the early Spring and late Autumn big fat winter bees. Without these homemade patty subs and with the slow Autumn flow here my winter bees cannot grow fat enough and the queens will only lay in smaller brood patches. Now the queens laid in bigger brood patches of the big fat healthy winter bees just like the beginning of Spring expansion. I put the finished subs inside a small plastic baggie about 1 lb. so that they will stay soft longer. It will be awhile before the bees discover that they are edible after that it is all history. Do a search here as I have condensed some of the patty subs posts from others under the same one thread. Can you say muscle milk? Yes, the end results are worth it. More healthy bees that can withstand diseases and the mite attack better. Other than good bee genetics your next important ingredient is an adequate bee nutrition. Now I'm in control of feeding my bees whenever I want and not have to rely on others to supply me with the bee ingredients. Feels good to be in control, finally!


    Homemade patty subs in plastic baggie:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  6. #5
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    Oct 2010
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    Mammoth Cave, KY
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    Manage in a way you don't need patties or sugar

  7. #6
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    Jun 2012
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    Suffolk Co, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    Quote Originally Posted by A'sPOPPY View Post
    Manage in a way you don't need patties or sugar
    I'm all ears. Tell me how to manage my bees without late winter patties to push them so I have 7 or 8 frames of
    bees on April 1.

  8. #7
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    Pepperell, MA.
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    I think there's a subtle difference here.

    "Pushing" bees is one thing and if you're trying to get a jump on mother nature then you have to add something that subs for natural pollen, gathered by foragers. If you want an early start, then feeding pollen / sub prior to natural pollen being available (and NOT stopping until the real stuff is readily available) usually works pretty well.

    That said, it's not necessary to feed pollen / sub early. It may be desirable depending on what you're trying to accomplish but bees do just fine waiting until real pollen is available and then gathering it for their use. Personally, I'm not a fan of feeding pollen or sub just because I can buy it and put it in the hives. Rather, when I do use it, I use it selectively on colonies that I think may have light stores, small cluster sizes or where I plan to split early...usually before the dandelions pop.

    The patties I do use vary but I try to buy patties with a lot of natural pollen and not just substitutes. Yes...they're pricey. No, I haven't got the time to make my own any longer.
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    The OP is considering brood building patties and asking if the brood building results are worth it.
    I say, yes it is. They promote brood build up.
    I use Bee Pro from Mann Lake. 50lb bags and make my own patties.

  10. #9
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    Aug 2011
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    KC, MO, USA
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  11. #10
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    The old saying, "All beekeekping is local" certainly applies. In my neck of the woods the bees often get only a few hours a day flying in during the red maple and willow bloom. If I was depending on honey sales to scrape up my rent money I would certainly be having a go at supplemental feeding to get their numbers up a bit higher before the first usable flows start for me. I do offer some dry pollen open fed but would have to arrange things differently to be able to get into the hives to put on paddies.
    Frank

  12. #11
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    Jul 2008
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    Aberdeen, Idaho
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    [QUOTE=crofter;1491391]The old saying, "All beekeekping is local" certainly applies.

    I am in a rural setting, and our bees use up most of their fall collected pollen producing winter bees. Come spring buildup they have very little stored pollen. About 12 miles as the bee flies east of me the setting is urban and beekeepers there tell me their bees go into winter with frames of pollen. My bees eagerly take pollen sub before the dandelion bloom. There bees ignore the sub.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    Beekeeping is location specific as already mentioned before.
    And not everybody can have the luxury of having excess nautral pollen
    stored away for the bees to get fat before the cold winter time. In some area the
    Autumn flow is close to none or very minimal. My bees are smart enough to
    hold their natural pollen for the Spring hive expansion mode. They will use
    up the homemade patty subs first making the winter bees before going for their
    pollen stores. This holds true also for the natural honey vs the loose sugar and
    Lauri's sugar bricks. They will not stop the winter brooding process until all hive resources are depleted something that I will be monitoring all year long. The story goes that they should make more bees coming out of winter than going in in the Autumn time.
    Inside the hive is so warm that even the mouse will chewed through the sponge trying to get in. Keep them warm and keep them well fed!


    Munchin on sugar powder, temporarily forgot about the natural stuffs:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  14. #13
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    Dec 2010
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    Quote Originally Posted by A'sPOPPY View Post
    Manage in a way you don't need patties or sugar
    Sorry, I must politely beg to differ. Take a look at Randy Oliver's experiment at www.scientificbeekeeping.com Click on the BEE NUTRITION heading, scroll down to "A Comparative Test of the Pollen Subs" and read it. Take some time to understand the entire article, and to correctly interpret the graphs.

    If I was trying to boost a colony that was lagging in early Fall, I'd fed them Mann Lake's Ultra Bee patties. If they were already pretty strong, I'd feed Dadant's Mega Bee patties. My reason is the slopes of the lines showing the Spring population recovery rates is highest for the Dadant Mega Bee patties, but the uptake rate of Ultra Bee is the highest. So I'd use Ultra Bee for a colony that needed a few more bees going in to Fall / Winter, and I want that steep Spring time recovery rate that Mega Bee displays for the strong colonies.

    Mixing the two together before feeding might really help a lot! I may go up and help Randy run that experiment over again with a mix of the 2 best brands added in the the test.

    If you look at the negative control group, as in "managed in a way that they don't need patties or sugar", and compare them to the results of the positive control group. I would never starve my bees of pollen sub during the Fall / Winter. That would greatly reduce your bees' chance of survival and severely reduce their buildup rate in the Spring. This would mean that they almost miss the first pollen bloom due to lower population!

    The strong recovery only happens when the first natural pollen appears (nothing quite as good as natural pollen as of yet). This turned out to be alder, about a mile away from Randy's Winter yard where the experiment was run. The 18 colonies in each group were averaged and the graphs showed the recovery rates. The results are quite impressive if you understand how to read graphs and understand the meaning of the slope of a line.

    Also, I commend Mr. Oliver for this experiment. He took time to analyze the question, "How valid is this experiment?" by calculating the value of p, the probability that a null conclusion was reached. A scientist wants a very, very low value for p, indicating that his experiment's results were not just a matter of chance, that the data actually had meaning related to the differences between the test groups, and was therefore valid. His value for p was around .00001, a on-in-ten-thousand chance that a null conclusion was reached. That is indeed a small value for his experiment, and a tribute to his scientific work. Congratulations, Randy! Huzzah!
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 11-27-2016 at 01:24 PM.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    >the old saying, "All beekeekping is local"...

    Feeding pollen patties in one location may be the difference between a crop and no crop. In another location it may be the difference between them dying in that last cold snap and surviving. The effect could be dramatically positive or dramatically negative... A honey crop is all about timing. You want the peak of the population to happen when the main flow arrives. Not a month before. Not a month after. I find feeding patties in the spring here to be somewhere between not useful and disastrous. But feeding pollen in a failed fall flow can make the difference in surviving or not surviving the winter.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    Oops! I see I put one too many zeros in the "p" value that Randy's experiment scored. "one in ten-thousand" is correct, should be .0001, not .00001.

    I agree with Michael Bush, and his comment is exactly in line with Mr. Oliver's experiment - it was done in the Fall / Winter part of the population cycle. Like he says, a patty a month too early in the Spring could be disastrous.

  17. #16
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    Clinton, Iowa
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    If the weather is really good here in the spring there's probably no real need. But it almost never is. And they might get a decent flight day two times a week. I don't want them ramping up then back down or curtailing laying.

    I also put them on early. Last year I put patties on here on a warm day in late February. Globbed it right between the boxes (basically middle of the cluster) and closed them up. Two weeks passed before it was warm enough to open them again. Popped them open and did the same thing. Adding 1-3 pounds at a time roughly dependent on colony strength. Nucs got the smaller amounts. All but maybe a little was gone in two weeks. We were warm early enough to do it last year. That may not be the case this year. While the two week forecast is inaccurate it usually isn't horribly so... If it's showing lows dipping below zero and highs in the 20s I'm not going to throw a bunch of food on them. But last year it was highs around mid-30s-40s nights reasonable. So I rolled with it.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    Another thing to consider about stimulating them too early. If you want to make splits, early buildup is great. If you don't want to double your hives, you may want to wait because if they build up early and you don't split you will be fighting swarming. Again, it depends on your location and what the weather did that year how it works out.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #18
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    Apr 2015
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    Thanks for all the replys. I just had a couple hives that seemed a little small. Lost one already. Not happy. Just want to try to make some hives with plenty of bees. Hope my other three make it. Just thought of giving them a little jump start.

  20. #19
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Which patties better?

    I have yet to see a healthy hive that never brood up after Jan. each year. Right now they are
    making the big fat winter bees. If they exhausted their food source then the hive will be hungry using
    all their fat reserves to heat themselves and tend to the broods. So if you feed too late then watch out!
    MP's first check is to see if enough food reserves in the early Spring time. He already knew they are brooding up no
    matter what.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  21. #20
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