Treatment free in Wales
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  1. #1
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    Default Treatment free in Wales

    Interesting video and the number of treatment free beeks is remarkable.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgR5FzMx_uA

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Thanks, moebees!
    Great!

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    I have a lot of time for Pete Hayward and have no doubt he speaks the truth as he sees it but his methods wouldn't work in the area in which I operate as bee density is much higher and a little more migration happens bringing in novel bees, varroa and their viruses.
    Many beekeepers will fill in surveys as treatment free due to the threat of prosecution or having their honey taken off the shelves if they admit to using generic thymol or oxalic acid treatments rather than the many times more expensive licensed products.
    Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade, just adding cautionary reality.
    Last edited by mbc; 11-02-2016 at 05:24 AM.

  5. #4

    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    The methods are not working in my area, too.

    But itīs nice to see there are still bees able to survive on their own, in spite of the claim that they need our "beneficial" managements......

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    I have a lot of time for Pete Hayward and have no doubt he speaks the truth as he sees it but his methods wouldn't work in the area in which I operate as bee density is much higher and a little more migration happens bringing in novel bees, varroa and their viruses.
    So he is not lying he is just delusional. You know his methods wouldn't work in your area based on evidence or your biased opinion?

    Many beekeepers will fill in surveys as treatment free due to the threat of prosecution or having their honey taken off the shelves if they admit to using generic thymol or oxalic acid treatments rather than the many times more expensive licensed products.
    I don't know the laws in Wales or beekeeping practices for that matter but the implication from your statement is that thymol and oxalic are illegal and there is strict regulatory enforcement that might give someone pause when filling out a survey. Furthermore you imply that they are in widespread use (and you living in the area would certainly no better than me). But survey data reported in the video was published in a beekeeping journal and is apparently voluntary and was not broken down according to type of treatment. If some beeks who treat are afraid of negative repercussions (I cannot imagine how that would work. Is there some way that authorities could match a survey respondents treatment admission to lack of use of prescribed treatments?) But granting your argument why respond to the survey at all? If the option is to lie on a survey or not respond I would think most would choose the latter and perhaps that may have altered the numbers if indeed the treatment numbers are too low? Do you have an opinion as to what the accurate numbers should be?

    Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade, just adding cautionary reality.
    Really? I am not having a parade but that does seem to be the intent of your post and most naysayer posts in the treatment free forum. Adding a cautionary note to any information provided in a forum is fine and helpful when solid information is provided. But what makes your cautionary statement/opinion "reality"? Because it comes out of your keyboard?

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by moebees View Post
    So he is not lying he is just delusional. You know his methods wouldn't work in your area based on evidence or your biased opinion?


    I don't know the laws in Wales or beekeeping practices for that matter but the implication from your statement is that thymol and oxalic are illegal and there is strict regulatory enforcement that might give someone pause when filling out a survey. Furthermore you imply that they are in widespread use (and you living in the area would certainly no better than me). But survey data reported in the video was published in a beekeeping journal and is apparently voluntary and was not broken down according to type of treatment. If some beeks who treat are afraid of negative repercussions (I cannot imagine how that would work. Is there some way that authorities could match a survey respondents treatment admission to lack of use of prescribed treatments?) But granting your argument why respond to the survey at all? If the option is to lie on a survey or not respond I would think most would choose the latter and perhaps that may have altered the numbers if indeed the treatment numbers are too low? Do you have an opinion as to what the accurate numbers should be?

    Really? I am not having a parade but that does seem to be the intent of your post and most naysayer posts in the treatment free forum. Adding a cautionary note to any information provided in a forum is fine and helpful when solid information is provided. But what makes your cautionary statement/opinion "reality"? Because it comes out of your keyboard?
    Oh dear.
    I know Pete quite well and I wouldn't call him delusional at all. As previously stated we live in slightly different areas, mine with more bee density, richer forage and higher crops, his in an isolated area on the lleyn peninsula. I wish I could get away without treating but unfortunately I don't seem to be able to without unacceptable losses ( despite breeding along the soft bond approach for a decade and more). This may be my biased opinion but it's a bigger sample of bees than David's and Pete's put together and a similar experience to other beekeepers in the locality.
    Apiguard in sachets and oxalic in the form of apibioxal are registered varroacides and legal, generic thymol or oxalic acid not so. Beekeepers in the uk are required to keep a record of any medicines applied to their bees,(most don't bother! ) claiming Tf makes this a sinch and often follows on into form filling.
    Reality is what you make of it and believing what comes out of any body's keyboard / podcast whatever is optional.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    moebees, and Phil Heath, the reigning Mr. Olympia for the last 6 years or so say she doesn't take steroids, full natty brah.... does him saying it make it true? Sometimes there's those unsaid truth's just to make everyone feel better about whatever they're doing. Personally, I don't care, smart people figure out if it works or not really quick and make their own judgements. Kind of like with small cell claims. I never bought into it, but I figured I'd try it and see what happens. I've found mites don't really care what cell size the bees are on, they do just fine on small cell it seems to me. I've made my own conclusion on the matter by trying it and seeing the actual results, not just taking someone's word for it and preaching it as gospel which is absurd. I'm tired of both sides of the argument saying what and what will not work for everyone because there's instances of it working for someone both ways, you just need to find where you, your bees, and your location fit into the scheme of things.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    mbc, i appreciate your posts and for providing insight into the state of affairs re beekeeping in your region.

    these locational differences in tf success are something we see in the u.s. as well.

    specifically, do you have personal knowledge that brings the statistics reported from the survey presented in the video into question?

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    specifically, do you have personal knowledge that brings the statistics reported from the survey presented in the video into question?
    The people who responded to the survey are a very small proportion of beekeepers in Wales and almost certainly weighted towards tf in comparison to the vast majority of beekeepers who didnt make the effort to respond, this is my own unsubstantiated opinion but almost certainly true.
    It is part of the tf phenomena over here that as a group they tend to comprise of one or two gurus and a host of very keen new disciples who come and go with quite an alarming attrition rate. Not one of the local associations advocate tf and they're generally quite keen on teaching keeping track of varroa and keeping the levels down where necessary (almost invariably an autumn treatment regime).

  11. #10

    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    It is part of the tf phenomena over here that as a group they tend to comprise of one or two gurus and a host of very keen new disciples who come and go with quite an alarming attrition rate.
    Wow, this in the tf Forum! But itīs true sometimes. Thatīs because tf beekeeping is to change managements and the path to do it not easy to go. Mostly because of people who are afraid to try something new.

    Iīm maybe going to be a tf "guru" myself in some years thanks for warning me how to treat my "disciples" , I want them to stay put.
    Last edited by 1102009; 11-02-2016 at 04:15 PM.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by mbc View Post
    T this is my own unsubstantiated opinion but almost certainly true.
    Well there you go. Now that is something you can hang your hat on!

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Gurus, disciples, movements. I'm just keeping bees that kept themselves previously. I never signed a membership card. Stop the madness.

    Thanks for posting Moe. Great stuff.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    I'm tired of both sides of the argument saying what and what will not work for everyone because there's instances of it working for someone both ways, you just need to find where you, your bees, and your location fit into the scheme of things.
    You say you're tired of it but then you and mbc and others come into the treatment free forum and harangue those that want to talk about treatment free. I don't get it. Why are you so bothered by people wanting to discuss treatment free if you have no interest in it? The contrary would be if I went into the diseases and pests or any forum that was discussing mite treatments and began opining about the relative efficacy of different treatments. To begin with I am not qualified but even if I were I have no interest in involving myself in those discussions. But for some reason there are bunch of people on here that seem to monitor the treatment free forum like a hawk and comment regularly even tho they profess no interest or desire for treatment free beekeeping.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordak View Post
    Gurus, disciples, movements. I'm just keeping bees that kept themselves previously. I never signed a membership card. Stop the madness.

    Thanks for posting Moe. Great stuff.
    I never imagined that posting a 7 minute youtube video on treatment free beekeeping in the treatment free beekeeping forum would draw the guns of the naysayers. Go figure.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by moebees View Post
    I never imagined that posting a 7 minute youtube video on treatment free beekeeping in the treatment free beekeeping forum would draw the guns of the naysayers. Go figure.
    Yeah, I hear ya.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post

    Iīm maybe going to be a tf "guru" myself in some years thanks for warning me how to treat my "disciples" , I want them to stay put.
    I would bet on SiWolke becoming a tf guru! No doubt about it.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    I disagree with characterizing it as "guns of the naysayers". There is always room for a good debate on the pros and cons, especially with regards to going treatment free. If you watch the video carefully, note that they rely heavily on replacement swarms. This suggests brood breaks as a significant part of their approach to treatment free beekeeping. I also noted the link conveniently placed on the video that goes to a page about a top bar hive they are promoting. I'm always leery of any educational video that seems to have an agenda.

    MBC highlighted something very real. The more bees traveling into an area, the harder it is to maintain bees treatment free. I suspect this is because of horizontal transfer of mites from treated susceptible colonies. There are some alternative explanations such as having less virulent mites in a given area which makes treatment free a viable option.

    Note that the above is my "opinion". I don't present it as scientific fact because it is not rigorously proven.

    P.S. JRG has gone out of his way to purchase treatment free queens for the last few years attempting to get past the issues from California's massive almond pollination event. He is posting his experience so far. I'm hoping he will see some positive results next spring.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    A good one at that. She's determined enough and sharp enough to make it work. I lucked into it by comparison.

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by SnickeringBear View Post
    I disagree with characterizing it as "guns of the naysayers". There is always room for a good debate on the pros and cons, especially with regards to going treatment free. If you watch the video carefully, note that they rely heavily on replacement swarms. This suggests brood breaks as a significant part of their approach to treatment free beekeeping. I also noted the link conveniently placed on the video that goes to a page about a top bar hive they are promoting. I'm always leery of any educational video that seems to have an agenda.

    MBC highlighted something very real. The more bees traveling into an area, the harder it is to maintain bees treatment free. I suspect this is because of horizontal transfer of mites from treated susceptible colonies. There are some alternative explanations such as having less virulent mites in a given area which makes treatment free a viable option.

    Note that the above is my "opinion". I don't present it as scientific fact because it is not rigorously proven.
    Sound reasoning, for sure. I'm just tired of the labels being thrown around. Rant over.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Treatment free in Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by moebees View Post
    You say you're tired of it but then you and mbc and others come into the treatment free forum and harangue those that want to talk about treatment free.
    i don't see anybody haranguing anyone about anything here. if you had been around the forum for more than just one month you would know that jrg has probably worked harder at finding bees able survive off treatments in his location than anyone else i am aware of.

    mbc was not impugning tf per se, indeed it sounds like he has been working hard to select for resistance. he's just offering his perspective on the video, and he happens to be closer to that situation than any of us here. unfortunately we've no one else contributing to rebut the information he has provided, but from the information we do have what he is saying is certainly plausible.

    in a perfect world there would be no bandwagons. in my view taking a hard line position that it must be this or must be that comes with the risk of being wrong either way.

    yes this is the tf subforum. yes it is inappropriate for contributors to question the motivation of other contributors for wanting to pursue keeping bees off treatments. my interpretation of that doesn't include the censoring all comments pointing out where and when tf has failed.

    the only way we'll advance our understanding about the how's and why's it works for some and not for others is to carefully analyze all of the experiences, the good ones as well as the bad ones.

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