Just how dangerous is Apivar? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    If you wear Nitrile gloves you don't need the other gloves and you won't get them contaminated either. Nitrile under leather gloves gets you contaminated leather gloves.
    Mark Berninghausen

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  3. #42
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    Apr 2012
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    Ka'u Hawaii
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    [QUOTE=Yea 6 months. I am sure you were new once. Who is being self-righteous. All i said was i am not sure if i am going to treat or not. If i don't treat what do you care?

    I was told when the mites first arrived in my neighborhood that it would take 3 years for them to cause my bees to perish.

    That turned out to be precisely correct. All of my hives would have been lost, as were the ferals, had I not treated what was left. Of this I have no doubt.

    If you've been keeping bees for 6 months, all I can say is you have a lot to learn about bees and keeping them.

    And again, if you keep bees where there are successful ferals, then maybe you can have success being treatment free. If there are no ferals, take that as a sign As MB has said, 'all beekeeping is local' and what works in one place may not work in another.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Quote Originally Posted by B Steve B View Post
    It also says absorption through skin can be fatal.
    I guess if enough amitraz was absorbed through the skin it would be fatal.

    For me I just finished putting apivar strips into 300 hives, didn't wear gloves, and don't have any kind of feeling of being unwell at all. Certainly no near death experience.

    I would say the label warning it can be fatal is butt covering. If somebody does figure out a way to kill themselves with an apivar strip, the company can say, well, we warned you. And, in a big enough dose, amitraz would be fatal so the company have to say that.

    Not recommending anyone else follow my no glove bad example, just saying not to get too freaked out over it.

  5. #44
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    Jan 2003
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    Miami, Manitoba, Canada
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    OT, I agree
    But on our farm we deal with a lot of Chem. If we snuffed off personal protection equipment eventually we would get sick. Same goes with our farm safety protocols. A little bit of planning and adherence to managing risk pays dividends down the road.

    OT, would you allow employees to handle Apivar without Chem gloves?

  6. #45
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    No I wouldn't. Anyone who works for me complies with label requirements for any chemical. Other than the idiot factor, even my liability insurance is void if label requirements are not followed.

    Somebody could come back 5 years later and say oh I got cancer it must be those apivar strips I touched with no gloves.

    Butt covering.

  7. #46
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Covering your butt or protecting people from themselves?
    Mark Berninghausen

  8. #47
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    Miami, Manitoba, Canada
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    I like to think of it more so protecting people's health rather than managing liability.

    I do speak from a different perspective in regards to how Big Environment is selling the "chemical is killing our bees" narrative. But that does not mean I don't respect the harm miss use of these chemicals can have.
    My father use to handle furadan without gloves and applied with an open air sprayer. He was careless to the fact that long term exposure to that chemical just about killed him. A buddy of mine use to spray for a living. Corporate conducted routene blood tests and pulled him off into disability because toxin levels in his blood were too high. He was too lazy to follow precautions when maintaining the machinery. His body has metabolized most of the toxins out and back to work... Using gloves ! Lol

    I wear gloves keeping these examples in mind, just saying

  9. #48
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Agree with all that. In fact I am a qualified pest control technician which I had to do to get access to wasp control chemicals which are a major bee problem here I've also been involved in horticultural pest control and do treat chemicals with great respect.

    Just, with apivar strips, if you want to kill yourself that would be one of the hardest ways to do it, out of all the stuff out there that is available. I know using a sprayer for some agricultural chemical in a field without proper PPE, would give you the potential for thousands of times the toxic dose of nasties that touching an apivar strip would.

    Not saying guys shouldn't use ppe, just saying the OP need not be quite as paranoid as he seemed to be he ain't going to die. As has been mentioned your dog might wear an amitraz based flea collar which isn't much different to wearing an apivar strip.

    EDIT - ppe ='s personal protection equipment, sorry. Since Apivar is non volatile the required ppe is as simple as a pair of nitrile gloves. Re scissors used etc, amitraz breaks down quickly it has a 1/2 life of just a few days once it is out of the strip.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 09-25-2016 at 10:14 PM.

  10. #49
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    May 2013
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    Chardon, Ohio
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    689

    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    The OP asked a real simple question and after a pile of responses no one has actually given an answer that has any meaning. It is easy enough to look up apivar and find out what the active ingredient is and once you know that it is easy enough to look up its toxicity. The first thing you might run into is an MSDS for apivar. That MSDS lists the human toxicity as a zero on a scale of zero to four. That is a pretty good hint the stuff is not very toxic. Then if you go a bit farther and find a LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of exposed animals) you learn it has a toxicity in the range of about five to ten times that of table salt and about the same as oxalic acid all depending on which test species (mouse, rat, rabbit, etc) you decide best represents what the toxicity would be in humans.

    As was pointed out earlier, no chemical is without toxicity. That includes chemicals we eat like table salt. If you eat a high enough dose they will all kill you. Most essential oils are a lot more toxic than table salt or apivar. Hopguard is often claimed to be safe because it is a natural product and as such the manufacturer is not required to do detailed toxicity testing. The claim on the Hopguard MSDS is it is "Relatively non toxic by dermal absorption or ingestion." A reasonable English translation of that is it is more toxic than a rating of zero on that scale of zero to four.

    A reasonable person might also want to look up the toxicity of any number of pharma products used to treat humans. What they would find is most of them have an LD50 considerable higher than apivar. That is to say they are considerably more toxic than apivar.

    I am a chemist and fairly fearful of chemical exposures. I handle amatraz strips with bare hands without fear. If I were handling a thousand strips a day for several days I would wear nitrile gloves without question. But, the truth is even then I would not likely run any significant risk at all with bare hands as long as I washed my hands before eating or using them to put gum in my mouth.

    You also have to remember that toxicity is an individual thing. Some place there is likely some human who has some unique genetic or immunity issue such that some small dose of apivar that would be inconsequential to way over 99% of people could still cause that individual a problem. Just like a few people die from a single bee sting or from eating a single peanut while the rest of us suffer no ill effect at all from either. Look hard enough and you could probably find someone that would die from a propolis exposure while the rest of us get coated with the stuff daily without problem.

    So, if the OP is concerned I would suggest he wears nitrile gloves and throws them in the trash after use. Also I would suggest he not lick the apivar strips for luck.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Definitely a difference between respecting chemical use and fearing it

  12. #51
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    Jun 2015
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    Nampa, Idaho
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Thank you again, all who offered real information and experience! This has been an interesting read, and I am satisfied that I need not worry.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    Treating is failing and all they can do is blame people who aren't treating... why not admit it doesn't work?
    Hogwash. Not failing for me.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Michael Bush, how is your hive count these days? Had any ups and downs in colony count this past year or two?

    Just the steady decline of negligence. No ups and downs. Beekeeping takes time and I haven't had time.
    Just what is that supposed to mean? You have ups and downs and dead colonies...but those losses are due to neglect and not Varroa? Your "Lazy Beekeeping" dogma comes to mind.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Why the "possibly fatal" warning when all the hype is about how safe this stuff is?

    Because it can be fatal...
    Michael is absolutely correct. Its amazing how some beekeepers just ignore the warnings. Someone should post the label for Apivar and also the label for Oxalic Acid. Common sense might suggest that a logical person might inquire what is more important, your health or the health of your bees. The bottom line is that these are very toxic chemicals and if you choose to treat then you should follow the instructions.

  16. #55
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    >Just what is that supposed to mean?

    Every winter a few colonies die. Every summer a few swarm end up queenless. I have a full time job, family that includes 10 grandkids, four horses, two houses to maintain and an old house I'm still fixing up, not to mention speaking a lot of weekends etc. Beekeeping takes time which is in very short supply in recent years. It means that despite no treatments and almost total negligence, my annual losses are below the average for my state.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevindsingleton View Post
    Can't help but wonder if, in some parallel universe, there aren't "keepers" desperately trying to improve the survival rates of their beloved Varroa mites. After all, it's simply a matter of perspective that determines which animals we love and care for, and which we mercilessly kill with poison, fire, and blunt force!
    We are that parallel universe!

    This is a world effort the entire planet is participating in this global event. Cost is no object! Millions if not billions are spent every year. All except one island/continent that doesn't want to play. They refuse to import any so they are just beekeepers.

    Decades of hard work and a regiment of hard chemicals to achieve this, we give the bees sub lethal doses of all kinds of chemicals and pesticides, some kill queens/bees/brood, at a minimum they all increase bee mortality and stress. It takes an increased amount of treatments to train these mites, which enabled them to become resistant to several pesticides so far.

    We only kill the weak 96% and breeding the strongest 4% of the mites, we are training them not to reproduce on drone brood and to get back in the worker cells quickly.

    All of these chemicals and pesticides are hazardous to people but we must stay focused. And encourage all to use as much as possiable. As a byproduct we have all this contaminated honey and wax with trace amounts of chemicals and pesticides, we have to get rid of, so we sell it. We don't tell the consumer what's in it, it's of no concern just a few ppm. It's fine no one has ever got sick or at least can prove it.

    The mites are responding very well for our efforts; pesticide resistant mites that are killing an ever increasing percentage of hives every year.

    We have the strongest and most resilient Varroa yet!!!

    You thought we were raising bees?
    Last edited by FlowerPlanter; 10-13-2016 at 03:07 PM. Reason: typo

  18. #57
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    Roy, Wa
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    I wear nitrile gloves for everything while working the bees & sticky equipment, including handling Apivar. I've gotten complacent a couple times, lifted my veil and grabbed a crisp fall Organically grown Fuji apple off my tree and eaten half of it before I remembered I've handled a few strips. I'm still alive. Not the best thing to do, but I didn't worry about it. Kind of ruins the organic aspect though, after all that work.

    I still consider Gravity a bigger enemy than Apivar.

    PA030274.jpg
    Last edited by Lauri; 10-16-2016 at 09:26 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  19. #58
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    May 2015
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    Default Re: Just how dangerous is Apivar?

    Apivar is safe but the legal team at their company took the safe road and have it labeled like it's radioactive.

    Nitrile gloves are great. VERY great.
    They make a huge difference and I mean really huge. (waving hands)
    I'd vote for nitrile gloves if I could. (they're great)


    HOWEVER:
    Once your hands get a little sweaty and one of your gloves rips the palm out you're sort of stuck in limbo trying vainly to quickly slip another glove on. Found that baby powder helps but due to a report that baby powder causes cancer... lol
    Them nitrile gloves are great, just great.
    Internet credibility is an oxymoron

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