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  1. #21
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by sr4440 View Post
    two typo's, the price at the site is 30% higher @ $8.95
    Actually, the price has gone up as of today. China has passed a law banning galvanization factories. There is a shortage of galvanized cloth everywhere right now and it is difficult to find and expensive. We pay $1.80 per square foot for it and we buy it in bulk 4 foot x 100 foot rolls, so get it about as cheap as you can. Our most recent order of it which we ordered yesterday cost us $568 for the roll plus $140 in shipping. So our prices are going up on the hardware cloth as well. This particular cloth is a very heavy cloth, as in you can bend it, but its not easy. It weighs around a half a pound per square foot.

    So we still carry it, as we have several rolls in stock, but the price is reflective of the current market value of galvanized steel and the difficulty in getting it. We are currently looking at suppliers in other countries such as india since China has outlawed the production of galvanized steel.

    you can find it here: https://www.funnybugbees.com/the-bee...plies/hardware
    Last edited by FunnyBugBees; 05-18-2017 at 03:55 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Now, realize that I'm a kludge artist from 'way back. But none of you seem to be considering that as-purchased hardware cloth is made and sold with square(ish) mesh. And that that mesh does not _have_ to stay square. Anyone familiar with "expanded metal"? Just diagonalize that material starting with #4, and you'll have something that bees can't get through and beetles can. Re-form it and it will stay that shape. Then cut it to fit your application. Get clever enough and you can cut to (some appropriate size) and then stretch it to "correct fit."

    Or so it seems to me. Of course, others may have a different definition of artist. Technique has an interesting etymology. Look it up sometime.
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often from the late David Sebree) Still making them, myself

  4. #23
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTiefster View Post
    Now, realize that I'm a kludge artist from 'way back. But none of you seem to be considering that as-purchased hardware cloth is made and sold with square(ish) mesh. And that that mesh does not _have_ to stay square. Anyone familiar with "expanded metal"? Just diagonalize that material starting with #4, and you'll have something that bees can't get through and beetles can. Re-form it and it will stay that shape. Then cut it to fit your application. Get clever enough and you can cut to (some appropriate size) and then stretch it to "correct fit."

    Or so it seems to me. Of course, others may have a different definition of artist. Technique has an interesting etymology. Look it up sometime.
    Some good points, ill try to address them.

    For your first point:

    If you use #4 not only will beetles get through but every bee, grasshopper, wasp, or other small insect and small lizards. #4 mesh comes in three industry standard sizes, they are:

    aperture in inch/mm wire diam. in inch/mm %Open Area
    0.215 5.460 4 0.0350/0.890 74.0%
    0.203 5.160 4 0.04701/.190 65.9%
    0.187 4.749 4 0.0630/1.600 56.0%

    So as you can see the average smallest aperture #4 cloth has is 4.79mm which is WAY larger than a hive beetle and WAY larger than bees.

    For your second point:

    There are woven wire mesh cloths and there are welded wire mesh cloths. Welded cloths do not lose square as they are welded at the wire joints. Woven wire cloths also do not lose square if they are galvanized as this basically "welds" the joints together. Since galvanized steel is the material of choice for beekeepers due to price point, you do not have to worry about it losing square. There is also the point that woven cloths with a wire diameter of or above about 0.30 in size are under so much tension that it is highly improbable that they will lose square either under normal use.

    For your third point:

    #6-041 woven cloth is 3.2004mm average aperture. Based on highschool math this gives a diagonal corner to corner measurement of about 4.3mm. Which you are correct is big enough for a bee....IF....and this is a huge if...the bee can manage to flatten itself into a 2 dimensional object so that it is able to pass through the plane created by the transection of one corner of a square to the diagonally opposite corner......which is not possible..Therefore bees cannot get through #6-041 cloth..

  5. #24
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    I call B.S. on that DerTiefster guy. He's me, so I can do that. I'd actually been planning on doing what I described, but when I tried it, IT DOESN"T WORK. As the esteemed and correct FunnyBugBees contends, hardware cloth is engineered to STAY SQUARE. News to me, having only dealt with things more like chicken wire and woven screening in times past. THANK YOU for educating me.



    Actually, most of those comparisons are not from me. #4 cloth will allow bees through, and is commonly available. I bought a 100 ft roll for ~$220 lately. My [attempt at] contribution to the discussion is that you _can_ take #4 cloth and pull on its diagonals and bend the wire. [Doesn't work, though.] You won't change the angles at the weldment points. But I never claimed that, and everything [no; nothing] else changes [either]. ....

    I contended: "One can take cheap #4 cloth and distort it by pulling along its diagonal to keep bees from passing through but still allow hive beetles to fall through." But I was wrong.

    I also said, "Sometimes it gets hard to think after 9 pm. Maybe it happened to me." Well, it did. I thought several months ago that I'd like to have a material that I couldn't readily get. I thought that #4 would be malleable enough to form to shape. Nope. Too stiff. I'm still learning, and I apologize for opening my trap before I actually did the experiment.
    Last edited by DerTiefster; 05-19-2017 at 06:57 PM. Reason: I thought I made a mistake, but it turned out I was simply wrong.
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often from the late David Sebree) Still making them, myself

  6. #25
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    I was wrong about the malleability of #4 hardware cloth. FunnyBugBees was correct that it is simply too stiff to shear in the way that chicken wire and woven screening can be diagonalized.

    It's a good day when I learn something. Today's a good day.
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often from the late David Sebree) Still making them, myself

  7. #26
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTiefster View Post
    I was wrong about the malleability of #4 hardware cloth. FunnyBugBees was correct that it is simply too stiff to shear in the way that chicken wire and woven screening can be diagonalized.

    It's a good day when I learn something. Today's a good day.
    Glad I could give you some good and right information. It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, so i respect you for that. As I have said in previous posts, we are a source for #6-041 cloth, about the only cloth size that will work for hive beetle traps. We sell the traps themselves with precut cloth as well as the swaths of #6-041 cloth and #8 cloth at www.funnybugbees.com

  8. #27
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    8 mesh hardware cloth is what you want and bees cannot pass through. The bees run the beetles down and they fall through. All kinds of uses for number 8 mesh in beekeeping. I got mine on Amazon at reasonable price
    few years ago.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by razerback55 View Post
    8 mesh hardware cloth is what you want and bees cannot pass through. The bees run the beetles down and they fall through. All kinds of uses for number 8 mesh in beekeeping. I got mine on Amazon at reasonable price
    few years ago.

    Again........beetles cannot get through #8 mesh. #8 mesh cloth comes in the following aperture sizes:

    8 MESH
    Wire Dia. Opening Width Open Area % Wt.lbs/100 sq.ft.S.S.
    .072 .053 18.0 294.0
    .063 .062 24.6 218.5
    .054 .071 32.3 164.3
    .047 .078 38.9 122.1
    .041 .084 45.2 91.5
    .032 .090 51.8 65.8
    .032 .093 55.4 54.6
    .028 .097 60.2 41.5
    .025 .100 64.0 32.9
    .023 .102 66.6 27.8
    .020 .105 70.6 20.9
    .018 .107 73.3 17.0
    .017 .108 74.6 15.0

    So as you can see, the largest aperture size you can buy #8 cloth in is 0.108 inches, which comes out to 2.7mm. A small hive beetle measures 3.2mm across the back, so even the largest #8 cloth will keep small hive beetles from passing through it. This means #8 hardware cloth is worthless as the cloth to use in freeman style hive beetle traps!

    Will a few juvenile (smaller) beetles get through #8 cloth? Sure, but most wont. DO NOT USE IT IN YOUR TRAPS!!

    If you want a mesh that works for this application use #6 mesh with a wire diameter of 0.041inches, this will give you an aperture of exactly 3.2004mm........which is exactly 0.0004 inches larger than an adult small hive beetle...enabling ALL of them to pass through it.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    For those considering use of #6 hardware cloth in that kind of application, be aware that according to both Lloyd Spear (manufacturer of Sundance pollen traps), and Michael Bush, worker bees can pass though #6 hardware cloth.
    #8 - no bee can pass. pollen gets stuck.
    #7 - as long as there are no bent wires, no bee can pass. Pollen falls through. Good for the bottom of a pollen trap to let the pollen fall into the tray.
    #6 - worker bees can squeeze through (and will) but they have to wiggle and squirm a lot. Drones and queens cannot.
    #5 - worker bees can squeeze through easily but lose some of their pollen. Queens and drones cannot. Good for a pollen trap to force the workers through.
    #4 - all bees can pass (workers, drones and queens). The workers sometimes lose some of their pollen when they catch their basket on the wire. (mice cannot and this makes a nice mouse guard)
    email address

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshardwarecloth.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    #6 mesh hardware cloth contains 6 squares to the inch. Workers can pass through 6 mesh screening, but with difficulty. More than 20 years ago we tried using 6 mesh screening on our traps but found it removed too much of the pollen so brood suffered.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  11. #30
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    For those considering use of #6 hardware cloth in that kind of application, be aware that according to both Lloyd Spear (manufacturer of Sundance pollen traps), and Michael Bush, worker bees can pass though #6 hardware cloth.


    You must not have read the entire post, or the posts ive made in the last 2 weeks. Your information is incorrect and wrongfully assumes that "6 mesh" only comes in one aperture size. It doesnt, it comes in about a dozen aperture sizes and only 2 of them work for hive beetle traps. "6-041" cloth has an aperture of 3.2004mm and will not let workers through, nor will any 6 mesh that has a wire diameter of more than 0.041 inches....

    The simple fact that no mention of aperture sizes is made by you or your sources proves a general missunderstanding of the variances in the dozen or so "6 mesh" cloths made, all of which have different "aperture sizes" (size of the opening between the wires).

    as an example, here is a readilly available "6 mesh" hardware cloth from a global manufacturer..

    Aperture -- Wire Diameter -- Mesh

    2.8 mm -- 0.055 inches -- 6 per inch

    As you can see this "6-mesh" cloth uses such large wire for its weave that not only can bees not get through it, but not even beetles!


    There are even #5 mesh cloths which will keep bees out, and they have 5 openings per inch, which many of you would think must be huge holes! You would of course be wrong, since the wire diameter of the woven wire is so thick that it takes up the empty space between the wires. Here is an example, it is also perfect for hive beetle traps.......

    Aperture -- Wire Diameter -- Mesh

    3.15 mm -- 0.071 inches -- 5 per inch
    (since adult hive beetles avg 3.2mm, and some of the openings will be ~3.2mm and some will be ~3.10 avg across the entire cloth)

    I will say that woven or welded wire cloths made with such thick diemter wire are both very heavy, and very expensive. The point is that none of you seem to understand that you need to look for the proper "Aperture", regardless of the mesh........
    Last edited by FunnyBugBees; 05-31-2017 at 06:38 PM.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyBugBees View Post
    You must not have read the entire post, or the posts ive made in the last 2 weeks.
    You would be wrong about that. I read every post in this thread shortly after they were posted.

    Frankly, I am challenging your statement made earlier ...
    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyBugBees View Post
    China has passed a law banning galvanization factories.
    Perhaps you'd care to provide a link or some other substantiation for this claim.

    There are various events happening in the galvanized steel market, including anti-dumping efforts in the US market regarding steel imports, but if China was ceasing production of galvanized steel there would be no need for anti-dumping efforts in the US market.

    https://www.bbh.com/en-us/insights/s...rade-war/15976
    https://www.platts.com/latest-news/m...inese-27674135
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  13. #32
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    At one time hardware cloth was a pretty consistent product. It was available at the hardware store in various sizes and was always galvanized. The apertures were pretty consistent. Now, it seems, many of the sizes are very difficult to find at all and when they are available the thickness of the wires varies and is often woven stainless steel. The hardware cloth I refer to the galvanized wire that was commonly available not long ago at the local hardware stores.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  14. #33
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    You would be wrong about that. I read every post in this thread shortly after they were posted.

    Frankly, I am challenging your statement made earlier ...


    Perhaps you'd care to provide a link or some other substantiation for this claim.

    There are various events happening in the galvanized steel market, including anti-dumping efforts in the US market regarding steel imports, but if China was ceasing production of galvanized steel there would be no need for anti-dumping efforts in the US market.

    https://www.bbh.com/en-us/insights/s...rade-war/15976
    https://www.platts.com/latest-news/m...inese-27674135
    I work for one of those mentioned US steel makers in the one article and I can tell you from personal knowledge that China's​ galvanized steel making is alive and well.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyBugBees View Post
    You must not have read the entire post, or the posts ive made in the last 2 weeks. Your information is incorrect and wrongfully assumes that "6 mesh" only comes in one aperture size. It doesnt, it comes in about a dozen aperture sizes and only 2 of them work for hive beetle traps. "6-041" cloth has an aperture of 3.2004mm and will not let workers through, nor will any 6 mesh that has a wire diameter of more than 0.041 inches....

    The simple fact that no mention of aperture sizes is made by you or your sources proves a general missunderstanding of the variances in the dozen or so "6 mesh" cloths made, all of which have different "aperture sizes" (size of the opening between the wires).

    as an example, here is a readilly available "6 mesh" hardware cloth from a global manufacturer..

    Aperture -- Wire Diameter -- Mesh

    2.8 mm -- 0.055 inches -- 6 per inch

    As you can see this "6-mesh" cloth uses such large wire for its weave that not only can bees not get through it, but not even beetles!


    There are even #5 mesh cloths which will keep bees out, and they have 5 openings per inch, which many of you would think must be huge holes! You would of course be wrong, since the wire diameter of the woven wire is so thick that it takes up the empty space between the wires. Here is an example, it is also perfect for hive beetle traps.......

    Aperture -- Wire Diameter -- Mesh

    3.15 mm -- 0.071 inches -- 5 per inch
    (since adult hive beetles avg 3.2mm, and some of the openings will be ~3.2mm and some will be ~3.10 avg across the entire cloth)

    I will say that woven or welded wire cloths made with such thick diemter wire are both very heavy, and very expensive. The point is that none of you seem to understand that you need to look for the proper "Aperture", regardless of the mesh........
    So what gauge of wire is the cloth that you are selling?

  16. #35
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    If someone says that shb can not pass through # 8 hardware cloth they are wrong. I have screen bottom boards with # 8, #7 and # 6 and I can say all 3 sizes worked. I can't say that 1 size worked any better than the other. I live is SC which is shb heavan. I don't use them anymore but I still have them. I found strong hives in full sun and no inner covers work better for me.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    the way shb pass thru #8 hardware cloth is to pass thru the square opening on the diagonal. i've seen them do it. my screened bottom boards came with #6 wire. when i added my oil trays with a plywood bottom and screened in front and back using #8 wire, i was surprised a few days later when i saw some bees inside my sbb with the oil tray, i pulled out my tray and my pan was 1 inch deep with DEAD bees that came down thru the #6 wire cloth. i had converted all of my colonies to the oil bottoms before i discovered this. i had a friend that i had converted one of his sbb over to the oil pan and his board had #8 wire on it. when i pulled his tray he had some dead shb in it and NO dead bees. i ripped the #6 wire off my sbb and replaced it with #8 cloth. no more problems!!! my oil pans have dead shb in it that traveled thru #8 cloth and no longer have any dead bees in them. 'NUFF SAID. CASE CLOSED!

  18. #37
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkwoodsbees View Post
    If someone says that shb can not pass through # 8 hardware cloth they are wrong. I have screen bottom boards with # 8, #7 and # 6 and I can say all 3 sizes worked. I can't say that 1 size worked any better than the other. I live is SC which is shb heavan. I don't use them anymore but I still have them. I found strong hives in full sun and no inner covers work better for me.
    Do you mean that the 8x8 wire mesh is passable? I would honestly think this varies greatly and can be very dependent on the wire size (gauge) of the metal - http://www.bwire.com - shows a standard 8 x 8 mesh as having a .030" wire diameter, which makes for a lesser opening - is this the mesh that you used? Any photos of the 8 x8 wire mesh used?

  19. #38
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    I purchased # 8 from ace hardware and I ordered a roll off Amazon and both look the same.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    I found out something yesterday and thought I would add it to this thread. I see where all the confusion about #8 hardware cloth is coming from now. Not all #8 hardware cloth is created equal. I have some I got from two different places. One is what I would call true #8 hardware cloth. I do not believe there's any way a SHB could go through it. Openings are just too small.
    The other is also supposedly #8 hardware cloth and even says so on the packaging. It is not. The openings are much larger than the first. Big enough for a SHB to pass through but I'm sure a worker bee could not.
    Lesson I learned out of my experience is in will not be blindly buying hardware cloth online and when I buy it in person, I will be looking at it very closely to see if it's true #8 or not.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: #6 hardware cloth or mesh source

    You don't understand how wire mesh is made.

    Different mesh size is made with different gauge wire for different use purpose

    there are 5 different gauges of wire used to make mesh 5,6,7,8
    you have thicker or thinner wire but the mesh opening is the same.
    there is no true one mesh size...ie one 8 mesh being the true size.
    each wire gauge used to make the screen mesh has it's own particular use.

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