Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    Adherence to evidence based practices by its nature regulates against both failure and the innovations that will become the next generation of evidence based practices.
    Well put. Evolution and genetic adaptation don't stick to "evidence" based practices. Some experimentation around the edges is necessary as today's success can be tomorrow's failure.

    I don't know where some get the idea that there is "evidence" based beekeeping in the first place. The evidence is that the beekeeping industry has created their own problems with careless movement of bees and their associated pests/pathogens from other continents and other regions within continents. The evidence is that beekeepers are very slow learners and continue to make the same mistakes over and over. They set up a disturbance, are puzzled when a somewhat stable system becomes chaotic, and don't understand the processes of adaptation to the point they actively get in the way of it. "Evidence" based beekeeping espoused by some is scientifically illiterate.

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Thanks for MB comment on other thread, I came across Dr Tom Seeley thoughts on why honey bees in Arnot Forest may be surviving without treatments. Yet to find the original video / audio of this talk, but here is the summary.

    Interesting to note are his views on colony size and swarming - small and frequent swarming. Also interesting thoughts on propolis. All points Sam made in his pdf doc I referenced earlier.

    Summary from the link mentioned below (credit goes to that author)..

    ---------
    His (Dr. Seeley) take-home messages were:

    As beekeepers we help the survival of the Varroa mite by:
    Sustaining susceptible bees by using miticides (stop using miticides!)
    Fostering virulent mites by having apiaries (have colonies in isolation)
    Fostering mites by preventing swarming (let colonies swarm)
    --------

    http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2...in-forest.html


    Edit: Found the video where Dr.Seeley talks about the feral bee survival - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkYxcgiqvbI

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    All human based agriculture goes against nature. Plowing and planting, monoculture, breeding for traits that contribute to producing food for humans all lead to food on our tables. Beekeeping can't be profitable if we go back to harvesting honey from bee trees.

    Can we do a better job? Yes, we can stop breeding mite susceptible bees and we can change our paradigm to one that is sustainable.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Can we do a better job? Yes, we can stop breeding mite susceptible bees and we can change our paradigm to one that is sustainable.
    I think a good understanding of certain key mechanisms of nature helps us comprehend the absolute need to breed well, and shows us how to go about it.

    That's just generalising really. What I mean is that 'husbandry' without selective breeding isn't husbandry, and can't possibly be successful.

    Mike (UK)
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    Thanks for MB comment on other thread, I came across Dr Tom Seeley thoughts on why honey bees in Arnot Forest may be surviving without treatments. Yet to find the original video / audio of this talk, but here is the summary.

    Interesting to note are his views on colony size and swarming - small and frequent swarming. Also interesting thoughts on propolis. All points Sam made in his pdf doc I referenced earlier.

    Summary from the link mentioned below (credit goes to that author)..

    ---------
    His (Dr. Seeley) take-home messages were:

    As beekeepers we help the survival of the Varroa mite by:
    Sustaining susceptible bees by using miticides (stop using miticides!)
    Fostering virulent mites by having apiaries (have colonies in isolation)
    Fostering mites by preventing swarming (let colonies swarm)
    --------

    http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2...in-forest.html


    Edit: Found the video where Dr.Seeley talks about the feral bee survival - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkYxcgiqvbI
    Swarming may just be a feature of the environment. Fill up a cavity space and swarm. Has it been any different before varroa? His work also shows a significant bottleneck post varroa. So even in a forested natural environment , bees had trouble coping initially and some genetics adjustments needed to be made. It would be an interesting but appalling experiment to set thousands of hives from almonds in the Arnot forest or any other area with established tf feral bees. I would expect a big set back.

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    In my opinion, this thread illustrates everything that is *wrong* with TF partisans.
    A guru, such as Oscar Perone, promotes a "system" based on some claim, and without evidence or systematic trial, the naive accept and promote the system.

    Recommendations should be evidence based, and subject to controlled testing.

    The various "esoteric" practices of the various online champions must be understood as a sociological construct. The naive want "answers" and a practice that recommends some peculiar practice is adopted, simply because it is orthogonal and oppositional to the "mainstream".

    The practice then becomes a group identity marker, it is adopted because it is different -- and confirms the membership in the group.
    Spot on!
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    this is now twice I have seen it mentioned that small colonies that swarm frequently are also strains of bees that are resistant to mites. So how does his reflect on beekeeping tendency to promote large colonies and no swarming? I have a general principal that says you can't interfere with everything a bee does and then expect it to excel at a given behavior or two. IN order to produce in any way exceptionally a colony must be exceptional in every way. in in those ways we do not consider desirable.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Very interesting read to this new beek. Following along...

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    In my opinion, this thread illustrates everything that is *wrong* with TF partisans.
    Can you give us a specification for 'TF partisans' JW? Am I one? Is anyone who does/tries to do TF one?

    Or does one have to follow a 'guru'? I suppose I largely follow the understanding held by John Kefuss. Would that make me a 'John Kefuss partisan?' Or would his commitment to evidence based beekeeping rule him out as a 'guru'?

    Doesn't 'evidence based' automatically include the processes of controlled testing?

    Mike (UK)
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    >this is now twice...

    I think I've heard it more often than that... so it must be true...

    >So how does his reflect on beekeeping tendency to promote large colonies and no swarming?

    It doesn't. I have no use for small colonies that swarm all the time so I try not to keep swarmy bees and while I like frugal bees (bees that overwinter in small clusters and don't eat as much) I don't want small colonies. I want large colonies that produce honey and bees at the right time.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    this is now twice I have seen it mentioned that small colonies that swarm frequently are also strains of bees that are resistant to mites. So how does his reflect on beekeeping tendency to promote large colonies and no swarming? I have a general principal that says you can't interfere with everything a bee does and then expect it to excel at a given behavior or two. IN order to produce in any way exceptionally a colony must be exceptional in every way. in in those ways we do not consider desirable.
    Lots of different concepts being thrown out here, but the starting point was along the lines of large and strong colonies allowed to swarm. The large colony, with plenty of space and resources is presumed to be strong and efficient, thus more bees are free to perform other tasks. One of those tasks could very well be hygienic related tasks. Bees in weaker colonies are arguably too overworked and won't exhibit hygenic behavior until it is too late.

    The swarming part was about allowing the colony a natural brood break, which should have a direct impact on mite reproduction.

    Together, these two concepts are consistent with minimizing interference. This however, may be contrary to maximizing honey production.

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    It would be nice to have a thread where we can discuss TF ideas without having to attack each other. To this end, it may be wise to simply let unconstructive comments go unanswered. Constructive rebuttals on the other hand should be welcomed and even encouraged. Let's please try to keep this thread on subject. I am personally learning much from most of the discussion here.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by JeronimoJC; 08-19-2016 at 12:47 AM.

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by JeronimoJC View Post
    It would be nice to have a thread where we can discuss TF ideas without having to attack each other.
    Or get your partisan attacked, Now what fun would that be
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat ;)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Was just watching Marla Spivak and couple of other videos on YouTube. Couple of things mentioned in those videos

    * Ensure Good, varied pollen sources
    * Encourage Propolis

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    ^^ Makes sense to me. How does one encourage propolis? I suppose one thing we can do is avoid disturbing/removing it.

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by JeronimoJC View Post
    ^^ Makes sense to me. How does one encourage propolis? I suppose one thing we can do is avoid disturbing/removing it.
    * Select in favor of the trait and / or stop deselecting against this trait
    * Rough hive interior either by selecting rough cut lumber or purposely scratching up the insides :-)

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    >Makes sense to me. How does one encourage propolis? I suppose one thing we can do is avoid disturbing/removing it.

    As Dasy said, stop selecting against it like beekeepers have been doing for almost 200 years...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Mix in some Russians genetics to get the propolis up.
    Italians X Russians will give you some result. Now I know!
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Makes sense to me. How does one encourage propolis? I suppose one thing we can do is avoid disturbing/removing it.

    As Dasy said, stop selecting against it like beekeepers have been doing for almost 200 years...
    This is good to know, thanks for passing it on Daisy

    Jeronimo J wrote: "Rough hive interior either by selecting rough cut lumber or purposely scratching up the insides"

    I use sawn cedar and haven't noticed any surface coating. I have noticed that bought boxes with a rail that the frame ears sit on, leaving a space below, get stuffed with propolis. I think maybe for me its just a thing to watch for, and maybe add to my selection criteria - certainly, as Michael indicates never select against it! To do that I'll need to keep my gear standardised so I can see which have the propensity to propolize, rather than trying to provoke it.

    Mike (UK)
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

  21. #80
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    Default Re: Keys to Treatment Free Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Can you give us a specification for 'TF partisans' JW? Am I one?
    Yes


    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Or does one have to follow a 'guru'? I suppose I largely follow the understanding held by John Kefuss. Would that make me a 'John Kefuss partisan?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Or would his commitment to evidence based beekeeping rule him out as a 'guru'?
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Doesn't 'evidence based' automatically include the processes of controlled testing?
    No

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