Requeening above an excluder
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  1. #1
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    Default Requeening above an excluder

    I remember reading a thread a few years ago, which I can't find now, that you can place queen cells in the supers above an excluder and the virgin, being smaller will go down through the excluder and supercede the queen. I have some grafted cells ready to go tomorrow and am wondering if anyone has used this method successfully or if it will not work. Thanks,
    -Dave
    15+/- beehives, Duck Hunter
    Wishing I can quite my job, keep bees and live the farm life!

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Lauri Miller mentioned that trick, but it was not using an excluder. 99% of virgin queens could not go through an excluder.
    ...We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are...

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    No need for excluder. Place a 24-48 hour started cell above the broodnest. The bees won't consider it a threat and will draw it out and finish it as they would a graft frame in a queen right colony. The cell will emerge and the virgin takes over. Whether she will kill the established queen imminently is up to the colony. I find many times she will get mated and start laying before the old queen is eliminated.
    If you install a capped cell closer to emergence, they will almost always tear it down with in an hour.

    6-24



    6-29



    7-1



    7-4



    7-7



    emerged successfully 7-8




    Below, left successful emergence, right torn down



    Started queen cell is perceived as no threat to established queen

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    Last edited by Lauri; 07-09-2016 at 07:46 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Unless you use a cell protector
    We use them on our mature cells when replacing with cells

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Unless you use a cell protector
    We use them on our mature cells when replacing with cells
    I haven't used cell protectors except for cell transport, but have seen bees uncap a cell as well as dig into the side if they are against it. I also think you have a better chance of the 2 queens coexisting together until the virgin gets mated, possible reducing your chances of ending up with a queenless colony & reducing your slight down time with lack of new brood, if they actually rear the cell within the hive. Going into winter with 2 queen colonies doesn't bother me too much.

    Down side is they don't get a brood break. But if they need to clean up the cells, I break them up into nucs and run a couple virgin queen through them. Later in summer though, options are more limited.

    I have consecutive photos of them tearing down a capped cell somewhere. Let me dig them out.
    Last edited by Lauri; 07-09-2016 at 08:13 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Thank you for the comments, my main reason behind it is to avoid pulling 100-150 lbs of honey off each hive to remove the excluder. But I will do it if I have to, thanks again,
    -Dave

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    When I have had spare queen cells and not enough mating nucs I have some times place a frame of brood in the top box placed the top box with a queen cell on top of the inner cover which had the hand hold covered with 1/8" hardware cloth and the notched slot in the opposite direction to the hives main entrance. Most of the time they will raise the queen which I can remove or take the box and make a split. However on a few occasions I have had the cell destroyed I think because I did not leave the top box queenless for long enough.
    Johno

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Ya lots of interesting ways to accomplish the task. We have cells ready every Thursdsy. Throughout our yard work we tag poor or failing hives. Drop a mature cell into the nest below the excluder and 10 days later there are likely going and those vigorous new queens catch up. By keeping all the brood activity in the brood area helps keep yard work less confusing for staff (and myself)

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Would you be able to transport these 24-48 hour cells an hour drive somehow?

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    I've had a hard time getting cells to fit in the JZBZ protectors. But it sounds like you are happy with your results Ian.

    Charles, if I was going to transport I would leave them on the graft frame and do it in a queenless nuc in a screened transport box.
    If you just want to transport a few, I'd put them in a roller cage with attending nurse bees and slip a disposable hand warmer with them in an insulated container for the temp control (Depending on the current temps).
    I use these hand warmers all the time with cells in an insulated soft lunch box I carry around with me all day as I collect queens and replace with ripe cells.
    Started cells would transport well because they are not as delicate as they are during the mid developmental stage.








    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Perfect thanks for the help. Would only need to transport ab 20 at a time and I could use either method you describe.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Requeening with 48 h cells... this looks so easy. I want to try

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Try putting a cell in the top box and make and entrance in the top box. The cell may emerge and mate and lay making a two queen hive? Then you can pinch the lower queen when you remove the honey crop?
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  15. #14
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    There was a large commercial outfit , not in US that requeened it's hives by placing capped queen cells up in the honey supers, if I remember correctly. They had a high percentage of success.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkwoodsbees View Post
    There was a large commercial outfit , not in US that requeened it's hives by placing capped queen cells up in the honey supers, if I remember correctly. They had a high percentage of success.
    Yes, I've heard a few people that have had largely successful experience of requeening with a cell placed in the top box, but that was without having queen excluders on the hives.
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  17. #16
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Requeening a failing hive justifies the risk, but simply dropping cells in all your hives might lead you backwards. Remember those virgins need to mate

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Good point, Ian.
    I found out that a strong queen hive will tear down the introduced cap cells or they
    will not feed the developing graft cells. Maybe they don't think that they needed another
    queen yet. This is the consequences of making the well fed strong queens.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Reviving this thread to ask - does anyone place an uncapped queen cell above an excluder, with an upper entrance, with the intended result a mated queen in both the top and bottom box? In other words, can you semi-reliably get a virgin to mate in the second story of a queen right hive, as Doolitle described?

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    Quote Originally Posted by Boxelder View Post
    Reviving this thread to ask - does anyone place an uncapped queen cell above an excluder, with an upper entrance, with the intended result a mated queen in both the top and bottom box? In other words, can you semi-reliably get a virgin to mate in the second story of a queen right hive, as Doolitle described?
    I tried it last year and got a laying queen in both boxes, but they killed the queen in the top box within a couple of weeks of her starting to lay. From what I've read and seen, it is one of those things than can work but doesn't always work. It's alright to play around with as long as you have a backup plan and aren't relying on it as your only source of queens.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Requeening above an excluder

    With a QE the bees in the top box are not queenless and will kill a queen or queen cell that you introduce. If you instead use a double screen board (e.g., Snelgrove board) the bees in the two boxes will not have direct contact with one another and the bees in the top box will soon realize they are queenless and should be much more willing to accept a new queen or queen cell.

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