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Thread: varroa

  1. #21
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    Default Re: varroa

    Dean, the label states to use in Spring or Fall............... but it also goes on to state "apply only when monitoring indicates a treatment is required." So is OAV this time of year illegal? You tell me....
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  3. #22
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    Default Re: varroa

    Well, if you really want to look at that language closely, you will notice that not only is a summer treatment us illegal, but so is using it ANYTIME as a way to monitor mites absent other data indicating treatment is required.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  4. #23
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    Default Re: varroa

    When farmers and homeowners use pesticides contrary to the label, beekeepers complain.

    Whem beekeepers use pesticides contrary to label, beekeepers call them......beekeepers?
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  5. #24
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Well, if you really want to look at that language closely, you will notice that not only is a summer treatment us illegal, but so is using it ANYTIME as a way to monitor mites absent other data indicating treatment is required.
    I disagree to an extent. The label says to use it when monitoring. One way of monitoring is using it to test for mites.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
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  6. #25
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    When farmers and homeowners use pesticides contrary to the label, beekeepers complain.

    Whem beekeepers use pesticides contrary to label, beekeepers call them......beekeepers?
    what is your point? is it to show how the labeling on OA may have some faults?
    or to let us know what a perfect world with perfect people would look like.

    know the one about throwing stones when you live in a glass house?

  7. #26
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post
    what is your point? is it to show how the labeling on OA may have some faults?
    or to let us know what a perfect world with perfect people would look like.

    know the one about throwing stones when you live in a glass house?

  8. #27
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    Default Re: varroa

    It seems when us treaters write in the TF forum we are called out but when the TF people question how we treat what are we to say? Do we always follow label instructions, no and the labels are IMO guidance. Clyde is absolutely correct. We keep our bees alive and that is more than many TF's can say

  9. #28
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    It seems when us treaters write in the TF forum we are called out but when the TF people question how we treat what are we to say? Do we always follow label instructions, no and the labels are IMO guidance. Clyde is absolutely correct. We keep our bees alive and that is more than many TF's can say
    sounds about right.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: varroa

    beekeepers in the u.s. were using oxalic responsibly 'off label' long before it was finally registered here. it's no big deal as far as i'm concerned.

    as far as comments casting broad generalizations regarding this group or that group, i've been quick to criticize those regardless of which side of the approach they come from.

    there's room enough in the universe of beekeeping for all of us to exercise our individual management choices, and none of us should be made to feel like we have to justify what we do (or don't do) to anyone else here.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    Why not do an OAV treatment rather than a sugar roll or alcohol wash to get a count? Easier, faster and a far more reliable count. As far as introducing OA to the hive, it's naturally there anyway.
    That's certainly out-of-the box thinking. Hmmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    There is no "wear and tear" on the bees.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    ...and the labels are IMO guidance.
    Actually, the label is the law. The statement below is found on the label of every pesticide registered in the US.

    It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in any manner inconsistent with its labeling.
    Last edited by cervus; 07-04-2016 at 08:25 PM.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by cervus View Post
    Actually, the label is the law. The statement below is found on the label of every pesticide registered in the US.

    It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in any manner inconsistent with its labeling.
    yes that is what it says on all of them. got it.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: varroa

    cervus, by all accounts oxalic acid doesn't appear to be all that stressful to the bees.

    what is less talked about (and not well understood by science yet) is how much of an impact the treatments have on the balance of microflora in the hive.

    the thinking is that the normal hive flora consists of thousands of species of organisms and the organic acids aren't going to discriminate between the harmful bugs and the beneficial ones.

    it's likely that healthy feral colonies as well as those managed successfully off treatments are deriving some degree of natural immunity from those beneficial organisms.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    per the EPA label, oxalic acid application in the middle of the summer is restricted.
    hence the problem with labeling.

    in my location, and if i were to choose to use oa, now would be the ideal time to apply it. my colonies are essentially broodless as they are eeking through our summer dearth. ridding them of mites now and before they start the late season brooding of overwintering bees would be ideal.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: varroa

    with regard to thresholds my thinking is that they are not useful for making management decisions. i base this on the finding that 9-14% infestation rates have little or no impact on my colonies while others report anything over 3% is a walking dead colony.

    in my view mite counts are primarily useful for those choosing to treat and mostly for the purpose of determining whether or not their treatment was effective, or possibly to double check for a late influx of a 'mite bomb' after fall treatments but before winter sets in.

    for queen breeders mite counts might be helpful for selection purposes but i haven't used them.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    cervus, by all accounts oxalic acid doesn't appear to be all that stressful to the bees.

    what is less talked about (and not well understood by science yet) is how much of an impact the treatments have on the balance of microflora in the hive.

    the thinking is that the normal hive flora consists of thousands of species of organisms and the organic acids aren't going to discriminate between the harmful bugs and the beneficial ones.

    it's likely that healthy feral colonies as well as those managed successfully off treatments are deriving some degree of natural immunity from those beneficial organisms.
    Seems like OA is probably pretty benign as far as a miticide. That's why I chose to use it. But to categorically deny any effect on bees is not conducive to the discussion. Heck, opening the hive during inspections has some effect. Certainly gassing them with an organic acid vapor has an effect. Silver bullets never come without consequences.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by cervus View Post
    Seems like OA is probably pretty benign as far as a miticide. That's why I chose to use it. But to categorically deny any effect on bees is not conducive to the discussion. Heck, opening the hive during inspections has some effect. Certainly gassing them with an organic acid vapor has an effect. Silver bullets never come without consequences.
    having used oa yourself maybe you have observed the effect snl speaks of. I have.
    and 'observed' should have been used when describing the apparent change in demeanor of the bees after treatment with oa vapor.

    here is your chance to educate the rest of us on the effects by directing us to some studies. the use of oa has a long history and the information is out there. give us the info that you find lacking.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    It seems when us treaters write in the TF forum we are called out but when the TF people question how we treat what are we to say? Do we always follow label instructions, no and the labels are IMO guidance. Clyde is absolutely correct. We keep our bees alive and that is more than many TF's can say
    Cam, your 'HO' (humble opinion) that label instructions are guidance and not law may be an opinion, it may be humble, but it is factually untrue. The label is the law....and when others (farmers, mosquito control, homeowners, landscapers, etc.) use it only as guidance beekeepers get upset.

    In a discussion where:
    "apply only when monitoring indicates a treatment is required."
    Is requoted out of context in order to flip the meaning 180 degrees ('apply only when monitoring'), by someone advocating such obviously illegal use, it seems ridiculous that pointing out that the advice being offered is illegal is somehow stepping on someone's toes.

    There was a lot of fanfare for the legalization if OA.....as far as I can tell, there is little (if any) desire to purchase OA that is legal to use in hives at all, and this thread demonstrates that legal use is of very little interest.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  20. #39
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    There was a lot of fanfare for the legalization if OA.....as far as I can tell, there is little (if any) desire to purchase OA that is legal to use in hives at all, and this thread demonstrates that legal use is of very little interest.
    you have no idea about the desire to purchase OA that is legal or the interest in using it legally.
    to claim otherwise is ridiculous.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post
    give us the info that you find lacking.
    How am I supposed to do that?

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