Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages - Page 13
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  1. #241
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    Huber wrote about the movable frame hives he was using in a letter to Bonnet in 1789. Dzierzon wrote about movable frame hives he was using in 1845. Langstroth says he read both of them. I don't think Langstroth ever claimed to have invented the movable frame hive.
    Dzierzon used movable comb hives, but not frames (afaik). If memory serves, Langstroth never claimed to have discovered the bee-space either - in US Patent 9300 he certainly mentions the 3/8" spacing within the text, but makes no claim at the end of the Patent for having discovered this.
    I think his great contribution was to combine the hanging frame and the bee-space, as Berlepsch's frames were spaced too far apart, with predictable results.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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  3. #242
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Movable frames themselves were first invented by Petro Prokopovych in 1814, which significantly pre-dates Langstroth.

    LJ
    Prokopovich and Dzierzon hives.
    ProkopovichHive.jpg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #243
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    It all breaks down to variants of 3 basic hive designs and 3 ways of managing those designs. ............ Bees have a natural inclination to work vertically which is stymied by the horizontal hive. ....
    This statement here assumes a shallow horizontal hive. For example, single level Langstroth frames.

    However, deep horizontal hives are equivalent to at least double-deep Langstroth hives with a single comb span all way through top to bottom.
    The bees work each comb all way top to bottom in a vertical fashion.

    Pasting my own example again.
    Notice, significant honey area on the top and brood area on the bottom - the same single comb.
    Downward construction was not terminated by any artificial obstacle (frame or floor).
    Bees chose to stop themselves.
    20180517_201046.jpg
    Indeed, shallow hives are not able to provide for natural bee inclination to work vertically.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #244
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Prokopovich and Dzierzon hives.
    ProkopovichHive.jpg
    Greg - that's a basic Stander Hive unit, not perhaps the best example of Dzierzon's hives, and says nothing about his opinion regarding framed-hives. (He was very much a Top Bar beekeeper ...)

    Here are a couple of quotes from Dzierzon's 'Rational Beekeeping', 1882:
    [...] colonies generally winter rather badly in frame-hives. It is, therefore, not advisable to insert frames in the "brood-nest [...] p.63

    There is nothing better in the proper brood-nest than simple bars or frames, open below, which offer no limit or hindrance to the bees in lengthening their combs nor to the queen in the appropriation of cells. p.116
    With regard to his hives - there is a whole range of hives shown within his book, but perhaps the most representative of these is the Twin-Stock, the design of which was awarded a first prize:
    twin-stocks-1.jpg

    'best
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #245
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    Jun 2018
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    orland park
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    i thought that if bees do not have enough space they will swarm. you are saying no more than 7 dadant frames for brood per hive, which seems too little. And also, how do you put the honey frames at an angle so the bees could climb on them?

  7. #246
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    but don't the bees need pollen frame to feed larva in the broodnest? I thought bees will use this pollen frame later in fall when pollen is scares to feed young that will be going to the winter?

  8. #247
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
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    Rutherford Co. NC
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    Default

    Wow, interesting thread. I think equipment design depends on the beekeeper more than the bees. If the keeper cannot work efficiently the bees will suffer, anaconda or worse. Any gains made in honey increase, will be overshadowed by disease, losses and collapses if the keeper cannot manage the colonies in the equiptment.

    That being said, people are different. Climates and terrains are different. Equiptment costs and labor investment are two different axis on a grid and those lines/curves interest differently depending on the variables of each keepers circumstances.

    I had ample money to ramp up with equiptment up front. Others do not and might compensate with labor intensive building of woodware.

    I am 5,2" and weight as much as a deep and a medium full of stores. I work on a steep slope with a flattened strip where the hive stands are. I have a week knee I am mindful of. I dont want to attempt to lift a large square deep even if it doubles my yield the first year.

    I also do t want to leave honey in multiple supers stacked high even if that is somehow more efficient. I can only more a superb at a time so I spin it and take those frames and trade them with capped frames. I trade a couple frames at a time from the second super up all summer long. This prevents lifting supers above my optimum leverage point, and saves my back and shoulders.

    So I invest labor to prevent injury and select my equipment accordingly. I should have all my stuff paid off this year and start making profit next. It took four years of selling honey to clear up my initial investment and the yearly add ons. I guess next year I can start paying myself.

  9. #248

    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    In a deep Brother Adam hive (12 deep Dadant frames...) you reduce the number of brood combs and cells, to avoid massive swarming. Yes, it is counter-intuitive. But you need to try and experience it, to fully understand.

    More brood doesn't necessary mean more bees. If you want to produce a lot of bees, an easy way to do this, is, to get those bees older. If more bees get older, the total number of the bee population per hive grows bigger. Because if less bees die off every day, the same amount of emerging young bees produce an overall bigger population with bees, that get older. It is a little like that chess board and rice thing.

    Newer studies showed, that bees immediately age quicker when caring for emerging brood. Open brood and larvae feeding doesn't change much of their life expectancy. But feeding of emerging young bees does significantly reduce the life expectancy.

    There are a couple of ways to achieve the goal, getting more bees older. Firstly, of course the obvious thing to do, is to remove capped brood from the hive. The oldtimers did this, by swapping young brood against capped brood between weaker and stronger hives. To reduce swarming.

    You don't do that in single queen hives, because it reduces the following honey collection capability, but with double queen hives that is a routine that has to be done every ten days once the hive grew to the height of population, which is mid May here in Germany.

    In single hives all you need to do is to reduce brood combs to a minimum. If you keep the broodnest very compact, you reduce the number of nurse bees that warm the nest, that transport food to the broodnest and actually feed the young bees.

    The queen is that individual queen. She doesn't lay much more in a large broodnest with many broodcombs as in an adapted broodnest. Adapted means, the broodnest is optimally adapted to the queens physical ability to lay eggs. If you provide the optimal space for her to lay, she doesn't and can't (!) lay more than she is physically able to do.

    If you provide more brood combs than needed, the same amount of brood is stretched all over the enlarged brood nest. With pollen, nectar in between. The bees don't die from this, but what does it to the bees?

    Most importantly the number of nurse bees needed increases. My experience showed that it doubles the number of nurse bees in a large stack of brood boxes. That is because space and time increases as the broodnest is increased.

    Usually in a hive one nurse bee cares for four cells. So a broodnest with 40,000 brood cells needs 10,000 nurse bees. In an expanded broodnest you need 20,000 nurse bees. By adapting the broodnest to the optimal size for that particular individual queen (in a square Dadant hive, Brother Adam hive you use a follower board to do the adaption), so by doing the adaption, you free 10,000 bees from the task of nursing.

    By freeing them from nursing you achieve several things. Firstly they do other tasks, like housekeeping, brood hygiene, ...and of course honey processing! A hive with an adapted broodnest is much more capable of processing honey. And this is why you get so wonderful results with the adapted brood nest system.

    Secondly by freeing them from nursing about 10,000 more bees get older...and this way you build up a huge bee population compared to an enlarged broodnest (two or more brood boxes..).

    These are the main effects.

    Another effect is, that the body fits the Bien. Means, in nature the broodnest growths perfectly adapted to the bee colonies ability to build comb. The size of the bee body fits perfectly to the bee colony. The bee body growth according to the queens ability to lay eggs and build up the colony. I think, almost all living things live in a body that fits them perfectly.

    In my experience, if the bee body (brood nest) fits the queen's performance perfectly, the bees are much(!) less eager to swarm. If the queen and the broodnest do not fit to each other, the bees want to replace the queen with one that masters the broodnest.

    In beekeeping we enlarge the body to get much more honey. That is ok, as long as we expand the body in the honey boxes above a queen excluder and keep the broodnest adapted to the queen. It is a misconception to think, that more brood combs means more brood means more bees. Of course up to a certain threshold that is true: up to the queens laying performance. But if you go over that, there is no real advantage or artificial increase in brood. The queen is that individual queen. She physically can lay a certain amount of eggs per day. She can't lay more than she can. There is a limit.

    If you stay within that limit with your brood combs, the bees feel that the queen masters her broodnest, the bee body. The bees are much more satisfied with their queen. Satisfied workers means much more eager working bees. They simply are in a good mood. Less swarms and significantly more honey will result.

    The buildup of bee population is phenomenal. Because of all the bees that don't nurse, they grew older. And this leads to more workers, leads to better fulfilling all the other tasks as said before. Housekeeping, brood hygiene, honey processing.

    Once you understand this bee-o-logy of the bees' nest, you can play with it. I think, there is a great future for the adapted broodnest. More and more people understand the concept and have great results with their bees. I think this is a milestone. And of course, you can use the very same biology to do special things like 2 queen hives.

    Best regards,

    Bernhard

  10. #249

    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Some impressions of perfectly adapted brood combs. Deep Dadant frames in the pictures.

    SstJ8sogTYeGPQ9OLiIq4g_thumb_e864.jpg

    Pollen and nectar is reduced to a necessary minimum. Nectar goes up to the honey boxes. Pollen is stored in single cells in between the broodnest (short ways to the nurses) and on one outer comb. Bees prefer fresh pollen for nursing over stored pollen, as a study showed. So let them use fresh pollen.

    5lFTccDSR2u7ahhqAD9sfw_thumb_e861.jpg

    Rp%p25KUSSu+jVfTQ6DxqA_thumb_e860.jpg

    The results are strong hives, less work and more honey. More peace for the bees.

    lagVWWROR9KtdJ+j%mvpXQ_thumb_e834.jpg

    pes3ZmQJS0C%g0DkEF3BZw_thumb_e858.jpg


    With the Brother Adam hive we harvest about 3-4 times more per hive than the national average.

  11. #250
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    Mar 2018
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    Iowa
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    14

    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    I've been using Dadant deep hives for 3 years and I'll never go back. I also have built some horizontal hives out of 2x to fit my jumbo frames. I use these to overwinter 6 of my colonies and they are always the strongest coming out of winter bar none. I have read through this thread twice over the last 2 years and always pick up on something new.

  12. #251
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Bernard - Could you please list the differences between the Brother Adam hive and the Modified Square Jumbo Dadant (If there are any...I suspect they are different) ?

    Thank you!

  13. #252
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    Jan 2005
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    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Bernhard may not see this but I can give the differences.

    The original Dadant hives were a bit over an inch longer and carried longer frames as a result. They were rectangular and over they years were trialed with different numbers of frames finally settling on 9 though 7, 10, and 11 frame variants are also documented. It is important to understand that Dadant's hive was modified from Quinby. If you read Quinby's book, you will see that he valued the front to back movement of a colony of bees as they expanded in spring and contracted in summer. This is the reason he used a rectangular box in the first place.

    The modified Dadant hive sometimes called Dadant Blatt is a rectangular hive with the same length as a Langstroth hive i.e. 18 5/16 inches internal measure. This hive is popular in some parts of Europe. While I found a few variations, the most common size holds 11 frames with 1 1/2 inch center to center spacing. The key reason for changing to the modified is because Langstroth frames can be placed into this hive easing the process of converting from Langstroth to Dadant dimensions. An added benefit is that shallow frames for supers can be used for honey storage in either Langstroth or Dadant boxes.

    The Square Dadant hive is sometimes called the Brother Adam hive because he used it as the best hive for his conditions. It was originally published by Dadant in several journals in the early 1900's. Brother Adam read of the hive and gave it a trial in the 1920's. Without Brother Adam's use of the hive and publication of advantages, the square Dadant would have been lost to history long ago. Key features are a square box with 18 5/16 internal measurements for length and width and depth of 11 5/8 inches accommodating 12 frames with 1 1/2 inch spacing.

    I am using 14 frames with 1 1/4 inch spacing in a square Dadant box. This has the advantage of improving spring buildup because a given size cluster can cover more comb surface. Faster buildup would normally trigger earlier swarming. To control swarming, I take a 3 or 4 frame split from each overwintered colony roughly 2 weeks before they are ready to swarm. Under the conditions Brother Adam worked, 12 frame was arguably the best format. For my conditions, I'm happy with 14 frames in a square deep box.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  14. #253
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    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Haven, CT
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    399

    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Bernard Heuvel, can you provide links to scientific articles or other written materials that describe the removal of mature, capped brood and the resulting effects on bee longevity and honey harvest size? I'm fascinated by the concept and hope that this topic has been rigorously investigated and that a more detailed description of the technique and the outcomes in a controlled experiment will permit me to implement this in my colonies next year.

    I will confess to frustration with my attempts to build colonies that are very strong in the spring for our main nectar flow but which are still not interested in swarming. It will be easier to remove frames with capped brood than to inspect every frame for swarm cells, and if (somewhat counterintuitively) this permits increased worker survival and a longer period during which they are honey gathering, it'll be a boon to my hive management approach.

  15. #254
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    Default Re: Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages

    Thank you so much, Dar.

    So, I am essentially building Fusion-power Modified Square Brother Adam / Jumbo Dadant beehives ...a mouthful, but gotta give credit where it is due. Not to mention that the ones I'm building are observer hives. I'll still abbreviate them "MSJD" hives.

    The last one I built had a square queen excluder, a square, Fat Bee Man-modified Miller hive top feeder, and some of the best cleat handles I've ever made - the cross section of the cleat handles was parallelogrammed about 20 degrees for excellent grip, and 1-1/2 inches wide, screwed from the inside and glued. When you make Big Box Beehives, good grip is a good idea.

    I'm working on a new concept that should really kick this thing in a good direction, and my table saw restoration is coming along quite well.

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