keeping races pure
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 39
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    wytheville, va
    Posts
    136

    Default keeping races pure

    how do breeders manage to keep a queen from going off and mating with a random drone and creating hybrid offspring?

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    10,857

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Queen bees can be "instrumentally inseminated" (II) instead of allowing drones to mate with virgin queens. More on that here:
    http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/apimondia_1.html

    II is more expensive than drone mating, of course, and usually reserved for 'breeder queens' very near the top of the chain. If you are raising lots of queens, another strategy is to geographically surround your queen raising apiary with drone yards with bees of your choice. If doesn't guarantee control of the mating process, of course, but improves the odds that the beek can get closer to the target.

    More on drone saturation here: http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/.../BC2006-06.pdf
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,922

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    >how do breeders manage to keep a queen from going off and mating with a random drone and creating hybrid offspring?

    Mostly, they don't. Unless you are buying an II breeder queen, you are getting open mated queens. They are all mutts. They have been open mating for millions of years. The ones brought to the US have been open mating for hundreds of years.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    wytheville, va
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    very interesting. thanks.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Richardson, TX, USA
    Posts
    378

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Buffaloelectric, queen producers select drone mother colonies based on the traits they want to see in the offspring of the queens they produce. They also create drone mother colonies headed up by queens instrumentally inseminated with highly selected drone semen chosen for a specific trait, an example, the VSH trait beekeepers like to see in their stock but rare if naturally selected. Overall though, they want a basket of traits to be represented by the drone stock. Those mother drone colonies, and capped drone comb from those selected mother colonies placed in other field colonies, are placed directly in the mating yards and up three miles away. This is to insure that the drone congregating areas (you need to read up on these) have plenty of drones and drones with the qualities the producers are looking for. Since queens mate with sometimes up to 30 drones, and with her hopefully mating with at least 17, there need to be a lot of drones available in drone congregating areas around the mating yard of queen producers who may have several hundred virgin queens competing for drones at one time. I wish a queen producer that may come on here would elaborate what drone volume level they target.

    Since the workers in a colony are diversified in their qualities because the virgin queen mates with multiple drones, the more drones she mates with, theoretically, the more diversified the qualities of the hive and the more likely it is to be able to survive different issues that may confront the hive. And hopefully those qualities are also accommodating to the beekeepers need's, like gentleness, good honey producer, low swarming tendency, buildup according the beekeepers needs, etcetera. Here's a good article to read: https://beesource.com/resources/usda/...of-honey-bees/

    This is something I've been trying to learn more about this year but I'm not what I'd call an experienced beekeeper, just a beekeeper fumbling my way through the dark. Hopefully my input helps some. There are some beeks that come on this forum who have been at this for a long time that can really share good info on this topic from a variety of perspectives, honey producers, pollinators, some overwinter in the north, some in the south, different uses of different honey bee subspecies due to their qualities. Hopefully this thread prompts some of that. Hint, hint, Oldtimer, Michael Palmer, Jim Lyon, Sqrck.........and a bunch of others.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    2,628

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    As Michael Bush mentions, almost all bees are mutts. Breeders are adept at "de-selecting" undesirable traits as well as promoting desirable traits.

    The most we hope for is a definable range of "acceptable" genetic traits - like hitting a target. The ranges hopefully "tighten up" (improve) over the years, as an archer hopes to hit a smaller target farther away as he improves his skills.

    Instrumental insemination allows us to speed up the improvement process by coupling well-chosen female bloodlines with complementary male counterparts (these are not "male bloodlines" - the males are haploid and are therefore tracked along the drone mother's bloodlines).

    By raising great numbers of bee colonies and selecting only a small percent of the best of this generation's stock for breeding the following generations and killing the drones and replacing the queens of the non-conforming colonies, progress toward a genetic goal can be made.

    Desirable traits do not magically appear - they have to be present, even if it is the only desirable trait in an otherwise terrible colony of bees. Therefore we must import the desired traits. We breed for strong expression of this one trait, promote the best (usually in a grading system with a high overall performance), cull the worst, and repeat the process.

    Knowing which colonies have which traits is not an easy thing at the beginning of your career as a bee breeder. Learning the best ways to test for the various traits, collecting, maintaining the records, and developing an intuitive feel for what the data is telling us requires some experience. You'll want to get some excellent help. You can find a lot of the information here on Beesource, but it takes a while to filter through it all, digest it, develop it into a working system.

    Breeding pre-suposes a fairly large apiary, a mastery of beekeeping, queen rearing, drone rearing, a working knowledge of genetics, record keeping, and mostly being a full-time beekeeper. One could apply a lot of the principles as a sideliner if one is astute, it's just that without the numbers of colonies of a large apiary, progress toward a genetic goal will be slower.

    It's probably fair to say that scientists using I.I. might keep pure bloodlines, breeders just try to manage a decent collection of mutts with better-than-average traits, tuned to an area where the selected traits are well-matched to take advantage of available forages and surviving the winters.
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 06-16-2016 at 12:29 PM.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,922

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    >It's probably fair to say that scientists using I.I. might keep pure bloodlines...

    But they would have to start with pure bloodlines...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  9. #8
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Castle Rock, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    1,702

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    The ranges hopefully "tighten up" (improve) over the years, as an archer hopes to hit a smaller target farther away as he improves his skills.
    "Spot on"... from 40 yds. After ruining a few expensive arrows like this, I switched to shooting "five spots" image(2).jpeg
    After 40 years of beekeeping, I've come to realize that the bees can fix most of my mistakes.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    2,628

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >It's probably fair to say that scientists using I.I. might keep pure bloodlines...

    But they would have to start with pure bloodlines...
    Actually, they don't have to start with pure bloodlines. Selfing and back-crossing techniques available through I.I. allow things that nature does not.

    Through some of the genetic techniques / routines available, we can breed a lot of inbred bees, out-cross them with other impure mutts, "de-select" what we do not want, and end up with the traits we used to have with a "pure" bloodline.

    I believe the New World Carniolan bloodlines were "re-purified" and brought back to a genetic "band" of traits that were believed to comply with the original Carniolan stock.

    If you wish, I can look up the story and post it.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    2,628

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Quote Originally Posted by Colobee View Post
    "Spot on"... from 40 yds. After ruining a few expensive arrows like this, I switched to shooting "five spots" image(2).jpeg
    And you call yourself Colobee instead of Robin Hood???

  12. #11
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Chardon, Ohio
    Posts
    689

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    Actually, they don't have to start with pure bloodlines. Selfing and back-crossing techniques available through I.I. allow things that nature does not.

    Through some of the genetic techniques / routines available, we can breed a lot of inbred bees, out-cross them with other impure mutts, "de-select" what we do not want, and end up with the traits we used to have with a "pure" bloodline.
    Exactly correct. To say queen producers are selling mutts is simply ignorant. Some do of course. But, that is not the usual. I have bought open mated queens from commercial queen producers that were first class queens and I can tell are very close to as advertised genetics if not spot on. Those queens were good enough I hardly even consider them the same species as the crappy mutts and feral queens I have handled. They were also as good as the queens I have raised myself from II breeder queens. I honestly do not know how in the world the commercial queen producers I have dealt with can produce such an excellent product at the prices they charge. I am decent at raising queens and I sure could not be profitable at commercial prices.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    2,628

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    I guess I'll dare to open a can of worms...forgive me Michael

    When we start making genetically engineered bees, we will have almost absolute control over the bloodlines. Yeah, I know, so many non-scientists with "pro-green" attitudes HATE gmo's, and the fear is with good reason - done wrong, it is a scary thing. Done correctly so that nothing but beneficial traits show up, and the abnatural critters are kept separate from nature, gmo's could be our best friends.

    Imagine bees that are almost immune to mites, fly out in 38 degrees Fahrenheit air, gather pollen and nectar throughout the season, build up population very predictably, adjust for dry years, make honey by the ton, and sting bears but not beekeepers. (OK - that last one is stretching it )

    This is just a rosy snapshot of a possible future where everything went right. It is admittedly improbable, perhaps as improbable as throwing bricks and wet mortar into the air and they land in the shape of an outdoor barbecue. It's possible, just not very probable. Overcoming the politics would be akin to achieving world peace.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,953

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Virtually every ecological disaster and genocidal movement has been an attempt to improve things.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    2,628

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Yup. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Battle Ground , Washington, USA
    Posts
    817

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    We could get to many feral hives if they were that tuff, I've heard around 1 in 10 swarms survive the first winter, if that number went up to 5 out of 10 we may have more than the planet can handle
    I'm not tense, Just terribly, terribly alert!

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    wytheville, va
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Wouldn't if you kept selecting for best characteristics kind of funnel a few lines of bees together and eventually be crossbreeding them? If anyone knows a good book on bee genetics or genetics in general that could relate to bees, let me know. It's never too late to start and I've already read the three bee books I have multiple times.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,922

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    >Virtually every ecological disaster and genocidal movement has been an attempt to improve things.

    Sevareid's Law:
    "The leading cause of problems is solutions."--Eric Sevareid
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,051

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Wouldn't if you kept selecting for best characteristics kind of funnel a few lines of bees together and eventually be crossbreeding them? If anyone knows a good book on bee genetics or genetics in general that could relate to bees, let me know. It's never too late to start and I've already read the three bee books I have multiple times.
    Get a copy of Brother Adam's Breeding the Honeybee.

    You might also like Breeding Super Bees by Steve Taber.
    Last edited by Fusion_power; 06-20-2016 at 01:52 PM.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    wytheville, va
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    Any chance you have read "Queen Rearing Essentials" by Lawrence john Connor and could compare it to your two suggestions? I'm always wary of buying a book in which Amazon doesn't have the Look Inside feature, but I am also wary of buying a forty dollar book.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Richardson, TX, USA
    Posts
    378

    Default Re: keeping races pure

    I've read Breeding the Honeybee, by Brother Adam. It's a very good book on breeding honey bees and you can buy it on Abebooks.com for $15.

    Contemporary Queen Rearing, by Harry Laidlaw Jr is also a good book. You can buy it through Dadant at a very fair price.

    There is also a section in The Hive and the Honey Bee that was written by Harry Laidlaw and Robert Page that is good to read.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •