Quality of "Emergency Cells" - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    I have some writings from back in the thirties on the changing analyses of the feed given to different aged and sex larvae. I am sure there is more definitive analysis available today. In any case the testing showed no difference in what was fed to the larvae for the first two days. It did not go into the question of whether there would be any difference depending on the attitude of a fertilized cell or whether there would be different outcomes if there was lavish food amounts as compared to merely adequate.

    The factor of the amount, rather than the content of the larval feed seems to be what would be most affected by the shape, attitude and size of the cell the egg hatched in. I can understand the warm feeling that comes from the conviction that the larvae was fed profusely from the moment of hatch but perhaps that is putting anthropomorphic values onto the situation that have no basis in facts of life of a bee.

    I think there is little question that sparse feeding and possible poor temperature control of incubation could stunt a queens ultimate potential but that extreme does not guarantee that a queen would definitely have poorer potential because the workers were tearing down cell walls during the time she was also being fed her pablum! Would the queen raised in that nice plastic cup be any smarter?

    I dont know but I think if it were that cut and dried there would be more definitive data on the common record.
    Last edited by Barry; 06-08-2016 at 10:26 AM.
    Frank

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Unless you start it a queenright hive all of your grafted cells are emergency cells. Pretty much all of queen rearing is practiced with emergency cells with rare exception.

    That being said swarm or supersede cells are a better option just for the fact that the bees take more time to feed the larva prior to capping. I have seen emergency cells caped in three days flat. I think the bees are in a hurry to correct the situation and try and speed up the process. I think this leads to lower quality queens.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Emergency cells capped in 3 days? Totally goes against basic bee biology your bee math must have been off.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    From graft, not from egg. normal is about 5 days.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Makes sense when you graft larvae too old.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    doesn't explain why I haven't seen it in queenright starters with supersede cells instead of emergency, they consistently go 4-5 days.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Quote Originally Posted by hivemaker View Post
    doesn't explain why I haven't seen it in queenright starters with supersede cells instead of emergency, they consistently go 4-5 days.
    What's the difference IF the grafted larva are the same age AND royal jelly is still left on the day the queen emerges?

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    It may not make a bit of difference. But for me logic says that rushing the process likely results in a lower quality product. So I don't use queenless cell starters anymore.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Quote Originally Posted by hivemaker View Post
    Unless you start it a queenright hive all of your grafted cells are emergency cells. Pretty much all of queen rearing is practiced with emergency cells with rare exception.

    That being said swarm or supersede cells are a better option just for the fact that the bees take more time to feed the larva prior to capping. I have seen emergency cells caped in three days flat. I think the bees are in a hurry to correct the situation and try and speed up the process. I think this leads to lower quality queens.
    I don't know that I would agree that pretty much all queen rearing is producing emergency cells. I just set up a cell builder using a hive that is already swarmy - swarm cells containing larva already started along the bottoms of frames. I removed the swarm cells and reduced the size of the hive by removing mostly honey frames - I did also find and remove the queen. I'm adding grafts tomorrow morning. Yes, it's a queenless hive - but it's also a very swarmy hive.

    I'm pretty sure that I could do pretty much the same thing except confine the queen to the bottom hive body, and move all of the brood to the top box and get good results if the hive is strong enough. That's pretty much what the Ben Harden method is. Most of the mainstream queen rearing methods rely on strong queenright hives to do the cell building - while creating a queenless condition just to get the cells started reliably. I don't know that they really produce emergency cells since 3/4 of the time the cell is in a queenright hive.

    Again though, it's splitting hairs at best, or semantics at worse. How many experts could examine a good cell (or queen) and tell you for sure if it's an "emergency" cell or not? I'd be willing to bet it would be a vanishingly small number of people.
    Since '09-75H-T-Z6b

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Brother Adam said that graft cells started and finished in his highly populated colonies were built on the swarm impulse. I think Doolittle and Jay Smith both said their graft cells were built on swarm impulse. The method of starting cells above a queenright bottom box is by the supersedure method. I guess if a person just removed a queen and stuck in a bar of grafts they would be emergency cells. The studies I have seen on emergency cells were mainly concerned with the larva age, Woyke found that 2 out of 3 times the bees selected larva of the correct age and 1 out of 3 they chose a larva that was past the best age to make satisfactory queens.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    I guess if a person just removed a queen and stuck in a bar of grafts they would be emergency cells.
    Actually, even in those methods a lot of emphasis is put on packing the cell builder hives with lots of well-fed nurse bees. Again, resulting (when the planets align) in very high-quality queens. Probably indistinguishable from high quality queens produced by other methods.

    Just my opinion - when choosing a queen rearing method, make your choice based on your needs, resources, and skill level instead of some hypothetical, immeasurable difference between "emergency" queens and other types.
    Since '09-75H-T-Z6b

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    I think its more about how well the queen goes out and gets breed as to how good of a queen she is. And the weather can play a major role there, no matter how you raised her.Actually how the bees raised her.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    I sure do agree with that.
    Since '09-75H-T-Z6b

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    It's a combination. The lack of well reared and well mated queens is likely the leading cause of the many queen failures we keep hearing about. Perhaps I should say that the folks who "settle" for one or the other are responsible for producing an inferior "product".

    A poorly raised queen won't perform well, no matter how well she gets mated. Conversely, a well reared queen won't perform well if she's poorly mated.

    Well reared, well mated. I want both, boss... Accept no substitutes!
    After 40 years of beekeeping, I've come to realize that the bees can fix most of my mistakes.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    I have a small black queen(out of a small QC of course - raised in cell starter/finisher), poorly raised. I kept it as an experiment. She's laying a nice regular pattern so far. Since I don't have new QC's yet I decided to keep her.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Having attempted my hand at grafting yesterday (which I am determined to learn) and seeing the dismal 1 in 6 acceptance rate this morning for my efforts, I have come to realize I am much better at making e-cell queens . The one accepted does have a huge pool of royal jelly to feed on. I have a queen going into this second season, emergency queen, who ranks among my best queens who I am attempting to graft from. Alright, time to go find this cell builder some fresh comb and young larvae!

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Quote Originally Posted by hivemaker View Post
    It may not make a bit of difference. But for me logic says that rushing the process likely results in a lower quality product. So I don't use queenless cell starters anymore.
    What's being rushed? Grafting the tiniest of larva into a queenless cell starter and forcing them to use the larva you give them. How does that rush anything? I'm confused as to your line of thinking?
    If you're grafting hours old larva and there is royal jelly left in the cells on the day that the queen finally emerges... what's the difference? Are you suggesting that the bees are so frantic that they magically rush the larva's development? Isn't the yardstick that there's jelly left over at emergence? If there was sufficient jelly deposited day one and they drew and capped the cell that day, would that queen not be well fed over the course of her development?

    Just trying to understand.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I have some writings from back in the thirties on the changing analyses of the feed given to different aged and sex larvae. I am sure there is more definitive analysis available today. In any case the testing showed no difference in what was fed to the larvae for the first two days.
    I have Queen rearing written by L.E. Snelgrove, chapter 4 Brood food and Royal jelly, He references M. H. Haydak 1942 1943 Minnesota who states that the composition of royal jelly fed to queen larvae changes daily. That fed to a worker larvae is the same on day1 and 2 but then changes to a different composition for days 3-5 .

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    It did not go into the question of whether there would be any difference depending on the attitude of a fertilized cell or whether there would be different outcomes if there was lavish food amounts as compared to merely adequate.
    Again Haydak experimented with this, he found that any shortage of food even at pre pupal stage can retard the normal growth of a queen. The only way to be sure your queens are fully developed is to make sure there is an abundance of food.
    Stephen 40+ hives. 6th year. Treat. Germany.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    > I have seen emergency cells caped in three days flat.

    I won't say you didn't, but I never have. C.C. Miller never did...

    "So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Quality of "Emergency Cells"

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    What's being rushed? Grafting the tiniest of larva into a queenless cell starter and forcing them to use the larva you give them. How does that rush anything? I'm confused as to your line of thinking?
    If you're grafting hours old larva and there is royal jelly left in the cells on the day that the queen finally emerges... what's the difference? Are you suggesting that the bees are so frantic that they magically rush the larva's development? Isn't the yardstick that there's jelly left over at emergence? If there was sufficient jelly deposited day one and they drew and capped the cell that day, would that queen not be well fed over the course of her development?

    Just trying to understand.
    I think the philosophy behind the issue is a queenless hive will stuff the cell with jelly and cap it sooner than say a queenright finisher which will take their time to properly feed it and cap when it's ready.

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