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a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

87K views 492 replies 36 participants last post by  AR1 
#1 ·
I had a research group from the University of British Columbia to take some samples from my bees. It is part of a larger survey of 1000 colonies Canada wide. Components tested throughout the season are

1) Hygienic behaviour
2) Aggression/defensive behaviour
3) Overwintering ability
4) Mite loads
5) Nosema and other pathogens
6) Gut microbiota
7) Honey production
8) Innate immunity

It was great to see competent people working with my hives that overwintered as nucs. One of the project leaders worked in Mark Winston's lab for many years and it was cool to see how quickly they found my queens and she gently handled and marked them. Very reassuring to see.

They enjoyed working with the bees, the foundationless comb, and commented how healthy and gentle the bees appeared.

Now if only I had bees that had a long history of TF like those of SP or Fusion, or Michael Bush. I suspect these bees will not really stand out in interesting ways.

http://cbr.ubc.ca/people/investigators/leonard-foster/ is a link to some information lead researcher.
 
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#99 ·
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The summer mite colony data reasonably predicts the autumn mite tally (a 5x expansion). The regression is improved by taking a "max" value of the spring and summer numbers. In other words, baseline load reasonably predicts the autumn maximum.
Good reason to eliminate mites early in the baseline period (and/or use minimum baseline number as a split selection criteria) to avoid winter losses.
 
#104 ·
View attachment 30541

The summer mite colony data reasonably predicts the autumn mite tally (a 5x expansion). The regression is improved by taking a "max" value of the spring and summer numbers. In other words, baseline load reasonably predicts the autumn maximum.
Good reason to eliminate mites early in the baseline period (and/or use minimum baseline number as a split selection criteria) to avoid winter losses.
Thanks for the graph. There has been some criticism about mite counts from others, and it looks like the dynamics are complicated because of intra hive brooding variability. The low mite hive may simply brooding later than the other higher mite count colonies.

In spite of these mite counts, I have colonies behaving very differently this winter. Some have some petered out, and I have to say, some of these were reluctant to feed and put on weight this fall and died. Others have robust clusters, some deep yet in the hive. I'm guessing they all had higher mite counts, but some shrug it off. Perhaps due to resistance to local viruses and nosema. I will report on cluster strength and survival this spring. March is probably when that will officially occur.

Since my little apiary is in no danger of disappearing thus far (it looks like I will have about double the colonies, maybe more, this spring compared to last, after a harsher than usual winter), I don't think there is any value to treating and losing information about actual survival, whatever mechanisms it is arrived at.

I do plan on doing some mite counts on hives this spring after they kick into gear about the same time they were done last year. I guess I need to shop around for a shaker jar.
 
#101 ·
Ha, yes I was wondering that ;). Just one extra mite that happened to be in, or out, of the wash, would have totally changed all those decimals!

Not a critisism though lharder, doesn't change the overall scheme of things and very interesting thread!
 
#111 ·
I've been thinking (I know dangerous) about the mite counts a bit and what they mean. I think a bee that controls mites is one that doesn't let mites spiral out of control year to year. So maybe 15 % fall mite counts are ok so long as it stays about 15 % from year to year. It means the bees are doing something about them if this kind of stability exists.

So what is to be looked for is some sort of year to year stability in mite counts as some sort of initial first step. Now I'm guessing that thresholds for doing something about mites might be different from hive to hive, but in terms of production and survival its not entirely sure what is optimal. We would guess almost zero, however bees have a list of tasks on the priority list of things they have to do and other things may be more important at a given time.

So it looks like I'll be doing some mite counts this next year and seeing if this idea has any possible merit.
 
#112 ·
except for the outlier #1148, (which may indicate good resistance if there wasn't a sampling error), the range of 7-15 mites per 100 bees is pretty much what i have seen in the handful of late season samples (alcohol wash) that i have taken.
 
#116 ·
So an interesting possibility emerged today. I've been in communication with Dr. Leonard Foster about possible future collaboration. I floated the idea of doing a long term study tracking resistance (and others as we are interested in more than just survival) markers in the local population of bees. Not only mine, but any ferals we find and I would like to sample bees from other beekeepers as well to get a big picture idea. In the process I will also possibly get artificially selected bees from other collaborators to test out as well in a TF situation. He seems to really like the idea and we will talk about it at our semi annual meeting. Could be a really interesting project.
 
#120 ·
So I went out to get the electric fences going and checked the clusters. Down to 9 of 16 at the study site. I forgot to write down which clusters went down.

However, by far the strongest cluster was a hive with 11 % mite count in the fall (1149). They filled a full medium box with overflow in the box below. A couple other with ok clusters, but I expect to lose a couple more with less than 50 % survival at that site.

Different story at nuc site with 21 of 32 clusters going. Most looked pretty good.
 
#121 ·
Make that 5 of 16, with one a dink that keeps going regardless. 3 good clusters and that's it. The nuc site is still holding its own.

Mike Palmer is in town to give a talk, and since he was here a day early, we arranged an ad hoc visit to my bees. The UBC research group came out as well, some beekeepers who were interested in learning how to overwinter nucs and wanted to see it in action, and a prominent BC queen rearer, Liz Huxter (sp?) I was a bit chagrined to show people my bees in the worst possible shape and have my horrible beekeeping skills exposed. The weather was horrible with new snow and blustery in the morning. Luckily, by the time we got out there, the wind had died down.

We weighed and sampled the living hives that were part of the study group (didn't take long), Mike was in there picking up and looking at dead bees finding evidence of viral infection, giving some pointers.

Leonard Foster noted that while the bee death was not good, the site provided really good information because of its TF status. Liz Huxter was excited about the few strong colonies that were there and was interested in their story. She also noted that the location may be contributing to the death toll. A bit of a hollow by the river. So I might have to change things up. Heather Higo noted that I wasn't the only one with a high death toll from the study group, and that the winter has been tough on our bees this year.

Overall message, the death was disappointing but some strong clusters were interesting developments.

After that we went to visit my nuc site. We just looked at the set up, popped a few inner covers to look at some clusters. After the despair of the first site, a few more smiles and a few were impressed by what I was able to accomplish and its potential. I think even Mike gave a "seems to be working" partial thumbs up to that site and didn't offer any major fixes to improve what I was doing. I can think of some tweaks though.

So at the end of it, I think I have made some new friends. Liz is interested in what I am doing and wants me to come down and see her operation. She is innovative and is an immense source of knowledge so I am honored by the offer.

We got to hear 4 hours of M. Palmer's presentation today. As always packed with good information. To me the central point always seems to be "we can be producing our own bees, and wean ourselves off of bees coming from elsewhere, and its cheaper." TF or not, taking that message to heart would reduce many of our problems. I think that message just bounces off many people, but maybe with the new generation there will be a shift in attitude. Meanwhile the lesson is really about ourselves and how we hold ourselves back by an inability to ingest new information and let that inform our thinking.
 
#122 ·
Good post lharder must be nerve wracking having a "panel of experts" come and check the bees! Have been in that situation myself the odd time and people find every fault real or imagined :eek:.

Anyway sounds like a fun day, nice work! :)
 
#123 ·
excellent report lharder, thanks for keeping us updated.

i totally agree with your point about mp's admonition for everyone to produce their own bees and the potential that has to solve some problems.

ot, any second thoughts about gracing us with a visit during your off season, the bass fishing offer still stands! :)
 
#124 ·
Iharder
Neat report. I intent to provide my own queens cause I am too cheep to buy anything. That was quite a few experts looking at what you were doing. No doubt that it will be bennificial in some way for all involved.
Thanks for the report.
gww
 
#125 ·
Ha, thanks SP :). I won't be making it, really got a bit too much going on. But having read you for years I would love to meet not to mention see some real TF bees! In fact there's a whole bunch of stuff I would like to do if I ever make it to the USA and attempting to catch a bass would be high on the list :).

Maybe in 3 or 4 years things will slow down a bit I'll do it!
 
#126 ·
Thanks OT. Its easier sometimes to work in obscurity, but in the end much more is gained by bringing other knowledgeable people into the mix. As a result some interesting possibilities present themselves. This year some interesting long term projects are starting to take shape to see if we can understand viral environments in a geographical and temporal context and their effects on the ecology, adaptation and evolution of honey bees on a regional basis. We learn something, that only results in more questions.
 
#129 ·
Yes, essentially so JW. A disaster, except for the 3 strong ones. The Saskatraz stock seems to fade in their second year in spite of excellent hygienic behavior overall. The local queen line is still going strong and has some nice looking daughters. Then there is that one queen from Pederson apiaries from Saskatchewan. It looks really good coming out of its 2nd winter. It is probably as strong as I've seen a second year colony coming out of winter in my short 3 years. Those bees are probably similar to the Saskatraz, except this one is mated in Saskatchewan, while the Saskatraz were mated in California originally.

So I've been curious about site effects. While I may look into new site options, I may also look into wintering configuration and see if I can make winter a little less stressful for an already stressed bee to boost survival a bit. I heard an interesting presentation today about using insulation with no top entrances and its affect on spring strength and brooding.
 
#132 ·
I would be interested in those 3 remaining hives being tracked for an additional year or two. or for as long as they hold out. Mainly to they continue to survive. I would also like to know more about each of those that did not so far and why. Was it losses to being in a low spot? Viruses? etc.

Mainly I am posting in regard to the produce our own bees comment and how I see you get a trend moving. First of all at this point I think gww's comment reflects the general positon of producing your own. Only cheap beekeepers make their own. A real beekeeper buys them, right? I think this thinking needs to reverse. It makes since to me that a beekeeper with the ability to produce their own queens and build up their own colonies is a better beekeeper. I find it takes a lot more skill to do so.
I don't think the Add to dictionary hive was developed and simply became a success. I think it was promoted as a better way to keep bees. over time it was recognizes at the equipment used by the more successful beekeepers. until it became a standard. I think rearing your own queens and producing your own colonies could also. Good beekeepers make their own. those that can't have to resort to the wallet. If nothing else stop the I make my own because I am cheap mentality. I make my own because I am that good.
 
#149 ·
I would be interested in those 3 remaining hives being tracked for an additional year or two. or for as long as they hold out. Mainly to they continue to survive. I would also like to know more about each of those that did not so far and why. Was it losses to being in a low spot? Viruses? etc.
I made some daughters from all the "promising" colonies in the study. The ones with vigour and good hygienic behavior. I even kept track of them, mostly. Better record keeping is on its way. So maybe the mortality trail followed down the queen line. I'll see if I can piece together an ancedotal story eventually.
 
#133 ·
Yes, I am thinking about moving the Saskatchewan bees to my home yard for safe keeping. I will talk to the landowner about another site on the land a little further away from the water.

There could be 3 experiments happening at once. Site selection on a piece of land, overwintering configuration, and they will all get robbing screens this year. Well the robbing screen won't be an experiment. But maybe it will be at some point. The question is how much horizontal transmission happens within an apiary?
 
#134 · (Edited)
The question is how much horizontal transmission happens within an apiary?
in my view that's a very important question.

we can expect a certain amount of normal drift in the typical yard set up when similarly looking hives are lined up side by side. additional drift can occur when colonies become queenless and the remaining bees join up with neighboring queenright colonies.

but it appears the greatest opportunity for horizontal transmission occurs when a collapsing colony gets robbed out by other nearby colonies.

we have reports from time to time about yard wide losses that reflect the 'domino effect' that results from the successive robbing out collapsing colonies and the gradual accumulation of more and more mites in the remaining ones until all or most collapse.

setting up the yards in such a way as to minimize drift and using robbing screens make really good sense, especially for operations that are in the developmental stages of propagating resistant stock.
 
#137 ·
That's the plan Mike. BTW, went back to put some boxes of food on the strong clusters and found a couple more clusters we didn't get in to. Both were part of the study last summer, but were booted out when they superceded. Once was a nice cluster, the other "ok":) A pleasant surprise.

I wrote down the hive numbers and approximate cluster size, but misplaced the paper. Just to get the story right for each hive. I guess I'll do it again next week.

But I got into everything, so far have 7 of 16 living at Heffley (2 small clusters), 19 of 30 at the nuc site, 8 of 11 nucs at home, and 2 of 4 big hives at home as well. I'll probably lose a couple of the small clusters at Heffley and a couple more nucs as well. The big hives at home look really nice and demolished the pollen patty I gave them so I gave them another.

So I laid some food frames in feeding rims for some of my strong clusters. I discovered that the queen will lay in horizontal frames. Some of them had brood. Sometimes I should just leave well enough alone and trust I did the job correctly in fall.
 
#138 ·
There is a development stage in mite resistant bees where you raise queens and 2/3 of them are susceptible. After about 7 years with no treatments, the resistant queens start to outnumber the susceptible. After about 10 years, they get to the stage that few or none fail due to mites. That is the stage where you start to see queen performance as the major factor in honey production.
 
#139 ·
Interesting, your own experience is behind this conslusion (7 years, 10 years) but do you have other cases which fit into that?

( Mine does, but there are difficulties to make exact comparison, because of the "treatment diminishing period 2001-2008" of mine, mite numbers were rising from 2004, huge losses 2004-2008)

The development stage surely is nerve wrecking. Living in uncertainty.
But the more joyfull is the moment when you realize mites are not a problem any more.
 
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