a little scientific involvement with TF bees. - Page 3
Page 3 of 21 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 411
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,170

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    good report lharder, many thanks for the update, following with great interest.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,019

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    Lharder, would you mind posting how many total colonies you have and how many of them are in the study?

    30 to 40 percent highly hygienic is incredibly high compared to the estimate made years ago that less than 3% of all bees were hygienic. This would on the surface indicate that a major genetic shift is occurring in our bees.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    There are 12 colonies of my colonies in this study. These were survivors from 26 overwintered nucs that I went into winter in (death largely my fault as far as I can tell, but I was trying to get my numbers up till the end of August as well. So they weren't as strong as they could have been and had moisture issues).

    I also had 4 other full size colonies that are going in their 3rd summer.

    Colonies across Canada are being sampled so there should be a interesting population description that comes out of it.

    I just had a look at the bee weight data. Average bee weights ranges from 0.21 to 0.25 g between hives. Thats actually a 20% difference. I makes me curious about the within hive differences. The hive with the highest mite count had small bees, while low counts were seen in the larger bees.

    I just cut and paste the data table for those who are interested. Sorry about the formatting.

    Weight of 50 Bees Weight per Bee Total Bee Weight Total Bees Shake 1 Shake 2 Shake 3 Sum of Varroa Mites per Hundred Bees
    12.34 0.2468 39.42 160 1 0 1 0.6260781329
    11.62 0.2324 44.56 192 1 0 1 0.5215439856
    11.59 0.2318 36.79 159 2 0 2 1.260125034
    12.28 0.2456 42.09 171 1 0 1 0.5835115229
    12.01 0.2402 44.85 187 0 0 0 0
    10.6 0.212 68.58 323 2 0 2 0.6182560513
    10.97 0.2194 53.83 245 12 0 12 4.8909530002
    11.72 0.2344 67.08 286 1 0 1 0.3494335122
    11.62 0.2324 54.79 236 1 0 1 0.4241649936
    12.54 0.2508 36.02 144 1 0 1 0.6962798445
    10.77 0.2154 45.51 211 4 0 4 1.8932102835
    10.61 0.2122 51.92 245 3 0 3 1.2261171032

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,019

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    One colony has zeros for varroa. Did you perform any special manipulations on that colony that could have affected the results? Presuming no special manipulations, that colony would have potential as a breeder.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    No special manipulation. A brood break when they were made up as a nuc and given a queen cell, and another in winter. I'm sure there is varroa in there. I'm looking forward to the results of the 2nd test.

    I made queens from most of the colonies that showed hygienic behaviour (also the most vigorous) but this one somehow got left out.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,794

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Lharder, would you mind posting how many total colonies you have and how many of them are in the study?

    30 to 40 percent highly hygienic is incredibly high compared to the estimate made years ago that less than 3% of all bees were hygienic. This would on the surface indicate that a major genetic shift is occurring in our bees.
    This could on the surface indicate many things. One of them that came to mind for me is that advancement in results of research and improvement or development of methods has had a huge improvement. mainly due to internet. Previously our expectation in advancements has been based upon individuals doing what they do observing what they observe and making what advancement they can alone. that is no linger true those attempting to do new things have at their finger tips access to many others doing the same. they can share their results nearly in real time. This has made a dramatic impact on the pace advancements are made. I am most familiar with the effect it has had on cancer research. Some describing it as putting advancement on a bullet train. In the little bit of time I have spent on breeding specific forums I see that this effort is subject to that influence at least to some degree.
    In all I don't think our previous experience leaves us with an accurate expectation of progress under todays conditions. It is no longer necessary to expect to wait years for results. But very reasonably it may only be a matter of months. Secrecy is harmful to discovery and I am certain there is a fair share of that going on. But even if it is only a handful that will share their information I suspect that effort will dwarf any effort being made by a secretive individual or program.
    I have seen myself with only limited effort that extreme progress is likely being made. Not only toward what does work but identifying and correcting what does not.

    For me this would support the idea that much is changing and comparably quickly. I am not so sure it is related to genetic alteration as much as it is simply identifying the desirable traits that already exist in the mass of undesirable traits. More of a weeding progress at this point than any direct enhancement of those traits. Last I knew of they have identified traits but in that effort they have also discovered they are not the silver lining they where hoped to be. they have their own list of issues. To much of a good thing is not a good thing sort of issue.
    I don't see a genetic shift. I see a genetic consolidation of what has always already existed.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    west central Arkansas
    Posts
    1,080

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    This has been a great read, very informative. Thanks for posting this, and congratulations on the results. Good stuff.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,805

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    That is the kind of testing we need to see done and quantified somehow to assess what actually is responsible for reported successes. It could be an important predictor of how transportable or stable the characteristics will be. If the genetic makeup requires traits passed down continuously on both the drone and queen sides a very successful line can also be a very delicate balance to maintain.

    Reading the story of the Saskatraz project sure impressed me with the importance of precise and comprehensive record keeping.

    Good work!
    Frank

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    Thanks for the encouraging interesting comments. I was thinking the study might document the demise of a tf apiary, but not just yet. If anything, this effort is going to provide a great baseline going forward. Of course the real test is coming up. Winter. Be interesting to compare this data with actual survival. I did have that one colony survive 2 winters with indifferent hygienic results. It certainly looks like Saskatraz queens may be a good starting point for those who want to do tf but don't have a strong feral presence. I have some traps out here and have 0 hits.

    I can also think about how to track certain parameters within the apiary population. I don't think its crucial in a tf context, but is helpful in communicating with those who treat, and those who treat but are considering tf. If a good data set is available, then realistic expectations can be described. Since I am not treating I don't have to test every hive to determine treatment regime, but can rather sample a sub set. Not nearly the work, but informative of population parameters. I am hoping after this year for some ongoing collaboration. A treatment free operation is an ideal place to do some adaptive genetic work.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    The research group came and took samples for the midpoint of the study. They will be used to determine mite counts, nosema (sample taken from honey supers where older bees reside), and a variety of viruses. Mite boards were place. I think just cardboard with a sheet of parchment paper coated with vasaline. A rubber mesh was on top to avoid bee contact. I get to gather the parchment paper on Thursday, bag it up and send it on. The mite counts will be done by some poor summer student hire at the university I believe. The mite samples will be processed then sent to a lab in Manitoba where they will be put on slides to examine bee caused damage.

    The viral samples will be sent to the bee diagnostic center in Beaverlodge, Alberta.

    The funding formula is complicated but there is support at the University, Federal, Provincial, with some private involvement with Genome Canada. At least it looks like a private corp that is interested in applications of genome information (not necessarily genetically modified though I am sure that is part of it). Big, big project.

    At any rate, we looked for queens to avoid sampling them and to verify genetic continuity. All were queen right but 3 were new...sneaky bees. They were assessed as to how recently they requeened, then sampled anyway. This sample may be good but the next big one in October they will be out of the study population.

    The president of the local bee club was out with us and all five of us were buried in hives looking for queens with the summer student claiming the prize for most queens found. Lots of honey and everyone thought the bees overall looked good with good populations.

    Once again people commented on the nice comb they were producing. I might have the foundationless thing under control.

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,019

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    You mentioned that they clipped wings the last time around. There are two possible things going on. Either the bees had 2 queens to start with or else they superseded because they did not like the clipped wing queens. A study about 40 years ago showed that 1 in 20 is a natural 2 queen colony at least part of the year.

    It will be interesting to see what percent of mites are gnawed on and to see what total mite drop counts you get.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,170

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    great report lharder, many thanks.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    You mentioned that they clipped wings the last time around. There are two possible things going on. Either the bees had 2 queens to start with or else they superseded because they did not like the clipped wing queens. A study about 40 years ago showed that 1 in 20 is a natural 2 queen colony at least part of the year.

    It will be interesting to see what percent of mites are gnawed on and to see what total mite drop counts you get.
    It would be interesting to have a mite drop count and compare it to the alcohol wash mite count, but I'm not sure they are going to do that with the alcohol method data which seems very thorough. 3 shakes to get every darned mite. Maybe hopefully the mite drop count will be part of the data set.

    It was maybe a bit early to think of 2 queen systems when they did it in May. I think there is a supercedure risk with clipped wings. But maybe it was just sloppy beekeeping as well. I did have get into the hives to get brood, and there is always queen crushing or queen transfer risk (I took extra precautions). They also marked them, but the marks were almost completely groomed off so it was good that it was done. Not sure how to get around this. Bees being fussy about their queens and health status may be an important survival trait. Hive not doing well? Supercede.

  15. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    west central Arkansas
    Posts
    1,080

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    I think supercedure is a powerful tool indeed. I had a hive last year with a pretty high mite load, that in the previous year I did not see. It was my first year, however.This was a visually high load, so it was pretty bad. The bees seemed to thrive, regardless, no DWV, no outward signs of sickness. At around the time I was going to requeen, the bees decided to do it for me through a supercedure. This is all anecdotal of course, but that same hive had a 2:300 sugar roll count when I checked just a couple of days ago. Again, this is anecdotal as well, but my bees won't allow a queen to be marked, they chew it off every time. I think there might be something to that.

  16. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,019

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    I've noted marks being groomed off of my queens for several years now. It may be indicative of hygienic traits.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  17. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    To prevent the mark color from being groom off I put a dab of the TB glue
    on her thorax first. When the glue is almost dry in a few minutes then I put on
    that year's bee color. The white dot may not be a perfect dot but at least the bees
    cannot chew it off for a long long time. I had queens that died when the marking was still on her.
    White is the most transparent color to put on.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  18. #57
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,805

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    I wondered if the water borne paints like in the Posca are not as durable as the zylene paints like Testors model paints. I have watched the workers definitely going to work on the dots. I think I helps if you allow plenty of time to dry before you release her.
    Frank

  19. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    I thought I would post a couple of pictures to put things in context. DSC_1217.jpg DSC_1241.jpgDSC_1223.jpg

    The first one is my main production yard where the research is taking place 12 colonies that started as overwintered nucs reside there. The second is my nuc yard. Currently at capacity with 32 nucs started this year. The 3rd is me getting ready to move some frames of bees/brood using a screen board to provide ventilation.

    Almost all my stuff is home made so I expect a bit of ribbing. I half expected the research team to turn around and go away when they first visited the site. But the setting is so nice that it made up for it.

    I have some more bees at home. I may be looking at another site depending on the success of my latest queen matings that are done for this year. 12 potential nucs, 3 two queen hives, and 2 one queen hives. I wouldn't mind moving the works out for the winter.
    Last edited by lharder; 07-30-2016 at 09:33 AM. Reason: addition

  20. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    I did pick up the mite drop sheets on Thursday after 72 hrs on the hive. Packaged them and shipped them.

    I put on some reading glasses to get a sense of how many mites dropped. Some I saw only a few, but some had up to 25 or 30. My sense was it was the stronger hives with the most mite drop.

    I talked with the field/lab manager and they will do a tally from each hive as they prepare the mites for shipping to the Manitoba lab. So we will be able to compare mite drop vs alcohol wash data. Yay.

  21. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: a little scientific involvement with TF bees.

    Came across this presentation with Daniel Weaver.

    Interesting stuff

    https://vimeo.com/179703681

    Still waiting for data from the last sampling

Page 3 of 21 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •