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OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

31K views 57 replies 32 participants last post by  shinbone 
#1 ·
I am beginner and I don't understand, why should I notch frames with young larvae when making quenless split/nuc. From my experience, they always started queen cells from any egg/larva frame I gave them. No notching, nothing. So what is so interesting about this OTS method? Why can't I just make the nucs by placing few frames of brood into them and leaving bees do the job as they like? Thank you.
 
#34 ·
bearkarting--
More than ample drones. Definately ahead of schedule in that regard for this time of year. We've had an overabundance all the way back to around Easter. You won't have issues mating due to lack of drones.

However, this is the absolute earliest I consider raising queens even though others go earlier. Just look at the weather the last two weeks, just horrible. Ive seen plenty of swarming activity already but I don't expect much positive from that. Normally very low success rate with colonies re-queening this time of year. Historically weather settles down in another couple of weeks and you will have better luck then. the longer range weather forecast suggest we might be heading into a different weather pattern so hopefully you get lucky and catch a break of good weather starting this weekend and moving forward. it is wise to also have a back up plan in case things get off track. you might want to try notching a second time about a week later just to have options

Good luck with the notching. personally havent had the best of luck with it but might give it another try just for fun
 
#39 · (Edited)
When trying to propagate really good queens I have notched six frames and gotten cells on all of them. If you want maximum cells, use the procedure mel moved past, of choosing twenty or so cells on a frame and placing a .257 caliber bullet for reloading ammunition in the chosen cells and killing the rest with wheat flour. Then you turn the chosen cells horizontally down and drop out the bullets and set the frame in a device that holds them a couple inches off the top bars of your cell starter and then finisher and the bees will draw them out.
Has anyone ever tried to notch every frame with brood? THe book is $50 but I find it worth it to have everything laid out better than on line and I like to pay people for their work.

Will they make q cells on all of the frames, or will they only pick half or so?

What's the maximum q cells you could get with notching?
 
#36 ·
If you pull hive body up above an empty hive body above an excluder the nurse bees who go up to tend the brood seem to not feel they are part of a queenright hive and will almost guaranteed to start cells, notch or no notch. If you notch cells in the brood box with the queen in it the bees will repair the cells.

Temperature and the number of bees in the colony probably affect the separation distance necessary to control whether some bees are functionally queenright or not. Carnie and Russian bees may be easier to induce starting cells.

My bees started capping a few drone cells a week ago. A few can be seen flying but they overwintered. It will be another month before a good supply of drones are mature to mate.
 
#38 ·
I have drones coming out my ears and at least one swarm came out of a two story five frame nuc. In my mad haste to keep open brood nests on a monster spring flow, I moved boxes of frames full of nectar up above queen excluders and found cells started where I had no idea there were eggs or larvae. The cells have probably emerged now in mating nuc/queen castles. When I initially started the OTS procedures, It seemed I usually notched cells that were beyond the optimum age and the bees rebuilt the notching damage and somewhere on the frames found cells more to their liking. Now that I notch the cells that look like there is a cloudy wet spot they build out cells where I want them. If I choose larvae that look more defined, they choose their own.
 
#37 ·
Last year, my daughter graduation ceremony from WMU was on May 2nd. So I notched the previous weekend on 2 larger hives. Both requeened successfully. July 9th notched same parent hives plus one additional hive. These three hives built ~ 40 QC's. Some were where I notched some were not. Wish I had more bees to support that many queens.

I was going to notch last weekend but weather has not cooperated. Tentatively planning on notching in 4 hives this weekend.
 
#42 ·
That depends on how crowded is the hive.
Without enough nurse bees to tend to the cells they will
make dinky queens. With a full booming hive they can take
more cells. Somehow the bees know to follow a set schedule.
 
#44 ·
What I like about on the spot queen rearing with the notching is that I can pick the frame or frames to notch and get the cells to be started where I want them on the frame and that makes them easier to cut off the frame. Put the notched frame in a strong queenless hive that doesn't have lots of other young larvae for near guaranteed results. I mark the top of the frame with an x with my hive tool. Be Extremely careful when you take the frame out or you may bump the cells and ruin them.
 
#45 ·
Once I tried OTS but the second day all cells were repaired and the bees have made no queens cells. Probably they needed more time to decide.
I find grafting very convenient using a magnifying head lamp. Starting from this year I'm using a sort of cloacke method instead of a separate starter. After the bees have been starting to draw cells, the following batches of cells can be given without making the second box queen less. It's the earliest time for queen rearing in 3 years since I have bees.
 
#46 ·
I've also been looking at the OTS method because I have a couple colonys that are really full of bees.
One of my 4 hives already produced capped cells so it was split Sunday, found the queen and placed her in a 5 frame nuc leaving one good cell and one that look a little damaged in the original hive. I'm wanting to keep a couple colonys for honey production but I'm not sure how to keep them from swarming? With Mel's OTS method as I understand it is to notch for a new queen and make split with the original queen before they start Q-cells but I'm concerned about getting a mated queen with the weather were having? Also how will a 2 or 3 frame split now affect the honey production? Seems like there is so much more to learn in 2nd season bee keeping
:s
 
#47 ·
hi everyone

I've been rearing queens (in small numbers) in observation hives in order to observe the growth and process of the making of queens ; I could see and take photos of how the workers started to use plastic queen cups a few minutes after the grafting opperation...etc..etc.. until the birth of the queen and the mating of the queen ; (removing of the mating sign by the workers....etc)

This year I want to try the OTS method and see what happens live (photos and filming..)

I would like to know I some fo you would have nice PHOTOs of the OTS Queens they were able to get and post the photos

I have been "studying" the emergency queens for several years now and I can tell that sometimes you get very good queens provided the bees used a new comb that never contained brood before ; and some other tims I could get very heavy queens (320 mg!) from brood laid in a old comb!! The results it seems depend on loads of factors (number and age of nurse bees, pollen availability, varroa infestation level..etc)



I will post some photos this we...
 
#49 ·
I have always just left queenless bees with a frame of brood. they seem to work it out. I have never bothered notching. in fact never really thought to do it. I have seen comments that bees attempting to draw out a worker cell to be a queen cell may not be the most adequate accommodations. I have not seen enough evidence this is true to be concerned. Things I have seen a difference in is a hive without enough resources to rear adequate queens. to few nurses. not enough pollen etc. It falls into the category of. no a worker cell drawn out to be a queen cell may not be the best situation. but as far as I can tell it is completely adequate. Concern and effort to achieve the "Best" is a waste. Plus who is to say an outright queen cell is better anyway. I would like to see a side by side comparison of queens. One reared in a queen cup and the other reared from a worker cell. Then measure time to mate and start laying as well as time required to lay first 4 frames of brood. Or something like that.
 
#51 ·
I am seeing a real difference of opinion on using the OTS method of raising queens, and how the OTS method is forcing the workers to raise emergency cells.

This brings up a question!

Doesn't every method of raising queens, force the workers into emergency mode to raise queens?

How is grafting any different than OTS, other than grafting removes the larvae from the original cell and turned vertically?

Regardless of method, the colony is made queen-less before introducing cells for queen building.

Any time a colony is made queen-less they will resort to emergency mode.

Bars of grafted larvae are just as much emergency queens as what the bees do naturally.

From what I have researched as well as read here, the key is the bottom of the cell, grafted, OTS or whatever method, need be open in order to raise the highest quality queens, giving the larvae full access to all available royal jelly.

So for guys like myself, with poor eyesight and hands not as steady as they once were, OTS may be the method to use for raising queens.

My thought would be, if a person is concerned about the workers not using the notched cells they created, why not use Michael Palmer's method of producing comb with nothing but day old larvae, and notching those frames and place the day old only notched frames into the cell builders? This would guaranty the only age of larvae in the cell builder would be day old.
 
#52 ·
My thought would be, if a person is concerned about the workers not using the notched cells they created, why not use Michael Palmer's method of producing comb with nothing but day old larvae, and notching those frames and place the day old only notched frames into the cell builders? This would guaranty the only age of larvae in the cell builder would be day old.
Very good points. I had not thought of it that way. I did a quick look and could not find anything about MP's method of creating frames of day old
larvae. Can you save me some time and give me a reference. Thank you. Your post makes sense to me. Created contolled swarms and lots of young queens seems to be the way to go. Mel Disselkoen has helped keep a lot of people in beekeeping.
 
#55 ·
Grounded, thanks for the link. A very informative thread. Much of it way above my pay grade and I will never be grafting.

It is my understanding that Mel recommends that you notch all of the frames that have eggs following the queens concentric laying pattern. With a magnifying glass I can do it.
Also Mell now uses plastic foundation so he is not cutting out cells.
 
#57 ·
"When I made the OTS notches I chose the youngest larvae on the frames and notched them. They were the perfect size for grafting, but I think given the choice the bees will use the oldest larvae suited to make a queen from. It's their quickest path to a new queen and that's what they are after. If anyone has any input on this, I'd love to hear it."

Brad Bee I think you are right.When I need a few I make one queenless after a couple days I start watching.I will cull the cells made from older larvae.I really like having a frame of new comb with eggs hatching.You can get really good starts from those.
 
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