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OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

31K views 57 replies 32 participants last post by  shinbone 
#1 ·
I am beginner and I don't understand, why should I notch frames with young larvae when making quenless split/nuc. From my experience, they always started queen cells from any egg/larva frame I gave them. No notching, nothing. So what is so interesting about this OTS method? Why can't I just make the nucs by placing few frames of brood into them and leaving bees do the job as they like? Thank you.
 
#3 ·
Because by notching the bees can make a much better fed queen than the can if you leave the comb as is. Bees can't chew the old cocoon filled comb. The larvae is fed extra royal jelly and on comb that's not notched it gets separated from the royal jelly when the cell turns down.
 
#4 ·
Hmm.. I have read and heard from many places, that when you have queenless hive, or if you are not sure, just stick them a frame with young brood. And I have good experience with queens from that. They are strong :)

And also I was thinking, that they move the egg from the cell into the queen cup they make for that. Is it not like that?
 
#7 ·
Thanks for the ideas. I am more surprised after this discussion, that notching is so needed :) Because many of us has perfect experience, how bees will create perfect mothers from any frame of young brood.

Anyway.. I would like to ask second thing.

What will happen, if you notch in a hive with queen?
 
#9 ·
Notching in a few different places can give you cells on a number of frames so you can start multiple nucs., whereas the bees may lump them all on one frame.

I notched a frame with eggs and young larvae that I was putting in to test if the colony had a queen or not. The next day the notched area was repaired (black plastic foundation) and the eggs and larvae were still in the cells! That is just one experience though. If you raised a frame of brood above an excluder and several honey supers I would bet you would get cells started in a queenright colony.
 
#8 ·
The workers can move eggs; actually they remove them from cells such as extra eggs laid or unviable eggs. I think they usually eat them though!

Many things are written that are not supported by fact. Books and the internet are full of such examples. Even Beesource lets a few examples slip through the cracks!;)
 
#10 ·
You chose the size larvae when you graft. OTS also allows you to chose the size larvae when you notch. It also allows the cell to be drawn in a downward position much like a swarm cell vs a supercedure etc. Also you notch where you want the cell to be built on wireless foundation which allows you to go back and cut multiple cells from the frame without destroying the cell. So you get more useful cells to transfer.
 
#12 ·
To the OP, and I think I wrote basically the same thing last night, OTS will give you superior queens to those that will be made in an emergency situation.

I have used OTS for the past 3 years when wanting to make a few queens, up to maybe 6 at a time. I started grafting last year, and I think I learned something about OTS in the process. A week ago I wanted to make about 6 good cells. I chose some nice just hatched larvae on the comb and notched 6-8 different areas on the 2 frames. I went to split them into different hives yesterday and the bees had only used 2 locations that I notched and those 2 weren't centered up in the notch like I had become accustomed to. The bees had pulled emergency cells on the face of all 3 frames that I moved from the original hive, as well as some emergency cells on the frame of eggs I used for OTS.

I think I figured out what happened. When grafting I've read and been told to choose the youngest larvae for grafting. Makes sense to me.

When I made the OTS notches I chose the youngest larvae on the frames and notched them. They were the perfect size for grafting, but I think given the choice the bees will use the oldest larvae suited to make a queen from. It's their quickest path to a new queen and that's what they are after. If anyone has any input on this, I'd love to hear it.
 
#15 ·
It's not a fad it's been used by many people for many years. It has its place in my apiary. Maybe not yours, but it is a great way to make a few high quality queens. We don't all need 24 queens at a time and I use the OTS method if I need 6 or fewer queen cells. No need for a cell starter hive. A strong nuc full of nurse bees can make 6 cells as well as a cell starter can.
 
#14 ·
I've never tried it, but have read the info. The logic is sound, and seems applicable for emergencies and small to medium scale queen rearing. Many have reported good success and some swear by it. It's simple & quick. No special equipment or manipulations are required - just a hive tool and some basic knowledge. It's one "proven" technique that has been successfully used for at least a few years. IIRC, Enjambes is one of the advocates. At least a few others, I'm pretty sure...

Basically, it revolves around the idea that bees build better queen cells with new comb, and prefer to build queen cells downward. The "notch" creates a point to start new wax. The new wax ( cell) can start off downward, right off the bat. This eliminates the "need" to float a larva out to the point where the queen cell can be built downwards, which speeds up the process a bit.

It's one of many ways to rear queens - the simplicity seems to be a major selling point. Of course it's not bullet proof - certain conditions have to be right. Not unlike the many other methods.
 
#16 ·
Ya, I personally think it's the perfect example of KISS. I've had a few conversations with him about it. He's tried pretty much the whole gambit for queen rearing. He published a book in 1988 about his cell building technique with shell casings covering the selected larvae and flour sprinkled around the perimeter. Then one day he tried breaking the cell wall with a twig, when the hive raised a cell from it he knew he had something simpler.
 
#17 ·
No, if you notch in a queen right hive they will
not build out these cells. They will repair the notched cells back to
the worker cells. Very typical in a strong queen hive situation.
 
#32 ·
That's not actually true.
I use OTS in the spring for my "swarm control" splits. I don't start my grafting until May when I have more dependable weather. Most of the big boomer hives need 1 split in early April before I can graft a round and these are perfect for OTS. I exclude the queen to the bottom box with brood. I place an empty super on the excluder and the second brood box is placed on top of the super. In the top brood box I include 2 frames of eggs/larvae and notch cells on each frame and face the notches together in the center of the box. I put the lid on and come back 1 week later to find in most cases they make queen cells. I did about 40 of these this spring (in queen right colonies) and I think 34 made nice queen cells. They will move up as many nurse bees needed to take care of the brood. I then take the top box and place it on it's own bottom board, feed and wait for the queen to hatch, mate and lay. The original hive gets a new second deep.
 
#58 ·
That's not actually true.
I use OTS in the spring for my "swarm control" splits. . . . . I place an empty super on the excluder and the second brood box is placed on top of the super. In the top brood box I include 2 frames of eggs/larvae and notch cells on each frame and face the notches together in the center of the box. I put the lid on and . . . .
mmiller - sounds like a good way to do swarm splits. Why the intermediate empty box above the QE? Is that to further educe the amount of queen pheromone finding its way to the top box? What happens if that empty box is not used?
 
#20 ·
Nice looking queen there.
Looks like the one I've grafted.
It doesn't matter which method you use as long as you
learn something from it and have good laying queens in the end.
I don't use the OTS method anymore as my bees are more than happy
to give me the queen cells every 2 weeks or so.
 
#21 ·
If the wax is light they seem able and eager to pull a good emergency cell. When the comb is older they may pull a cell out, or may not even try. This spring, I had 4 that didn't draw cells from older comb. In comb of same age in other splits I notched and got good cells. I did get a few not notched that did pull cells, but they didn't look as good. In any case I want a good queen not a pretty cell. We'll see.
 
#22 ·
I have used the OTS method very successfully and notching is critical if you're trying to create more than one split from a hive. I've found that sometimes the hive doesn't like the larva I've selected and notched, but most of the time they do. I mark the frames I've notched and a week later those are almost always the ones that have queen cells constructed on them.

Winter was terrible two years ago and I lost all but one hive. I used Mel Disselkoen's book as a guide for splitting and by the fall had 11 strong hives ready for winter, harvested 3 gallons of honey and sold 2 nucs. Most importantly, I didn't spend even a single dime on bees or queens. Just the cost of a book.

I don't think this is a fad at all, just one method of effective beekeeping.
 
#23 ·
If you make a hive queenless they will make queen cells with or without notching. The idea is that you are picking the right age larvae (based on the theory that the bees will not) and also that the bees prefer to (and maybe for a well fed queen need to) tear down the cell wall, which is difficult with cocoons in the cells. You help insure both things: the right age larvae, and a cell wall they can tear down.

I have yet to see any evidence that bees can move eggs. Though there are those who believe they can.
 
#24 ·
The idea is that you are picking the right age larvae (based on the theory that the bees will not) .
Michael,

With all due respect (seriously), It is not based on the theory that the bees won't pick the right age larva. Mel even states, you have to pick the same age the bees would use or they will ignore your notches. The main point I've learned from Mel is that when you notch an appropriate cell(s) the bees will build a nice full size queen cell and not have a mis-shaped cell that goes from horizontal to vertical.
 
#25 ·
>With all due respect (seriously), It is not based on the theory that the bees won't pick the right age larva. Mel even states, you have to pick the same age the bees would use or they will ignore your notches. The main point I've learned from Mel is that when you notch an appropriate cell(s) the bees will build a nice full size queen cell and not have a mis-shaped cell that goes from horizontal to vertical.

I agree that they won't pick the wrong aged larvae but it is a common concern. The two issues that have been raised over the decades with emergency queens is whether they pick the right age larvae and whether they are undernourished if they can't tear down the cell wall. OTS settles both questions.
 
#27 ·
I agree that they won't pick the wrong aged larvae but it is a common concern. The two issues that have been raised over the decades with emergency queens is whether they pick the right age larvae and whether they are undernourished if they can't tear down the cell wall. OTS settles both questions.

I see what you meant, I thought you were saying something else :thumbsup: I didn't know anyone thought the bees would choose the wrong age larva :lpf:
 
#26 ·
Notching is only a very small part of the OTS system. With the whole system in place you wont use mite-a-cides or every have to worry about swarms. You can get the first book for free on his web site but I do recommend buying the new book if you are serious about the program as it is written.
 
#29 ·
For some reason my bees don't make the queen cells that
easily. So I have to do a graft in order for them to make these cells.
They just cap all the regular larvae into the worker bees in a queen less hive.
 
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