OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    Could getting a huge number of cells started lead to having the feeding neglected to some extent? Maybe not if you are moving the frames into other supporting hives right away.
    Frank

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  3. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    7,861

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    That depends on how crowded is the hive.
    Without enough nurse bees to tend to the cells they will
    make dinky queens. With a full booming hive they can take
    more cells. Somehow the bees know to follow a set schedule.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  4. #43
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Edgefield County, South Carolina
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    1,019

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    I was going to try a Clemens starter finisher but OTS... that way the box will be populous with bees and feed.
    sc-bee

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Franklin County, PA
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    654

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    What I like about on the spot queen rearing with the notching is that I can pick the frame or frames to notch and get the cells to be started where I want them on the frame and that makes them easier to cut off the frame. Put the notched frame in a strong queenless hive that doesn't have lots of other young larvae for near guaranteed results. I mark the top of the frame with an x with my hive tool. Be Extremely careful when you take the frame out or you may bump the cells and ruin them.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Sibiu, Romania
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    192

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    Once I tried OTS but the second day all cells were repaired and the bees have made no queens cells. Probably they needed more time to decide.
    I find grafting very convenient using a magnifying head lamp. Starting from this year I'm using a sort of cloacke method instead of a separate starter. After the bees have been starting to draw cells, the following batches of cells can be given without making the second box queen less. It's the earliest time for queen rearing in 3 years since I have bees.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Spencer IN
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    20

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    I've also been looking at the OTS method because I have a couple colonys that are really full of bees.
    One of my 4 hives already produced capped cells so it was split Sunday, found the queen and placed her in a 5 frame nuc leaving one good cell and one that look a little damaged in the original hive. I'm wanting to keep a couple colonys for honey production but I'm not sure how to keep them from swarming? With Mel's OTS method as I understand it is to notch for a new queen and make split with the original queen before they start Q-cells but I'm concerned about getting a mated queen with the weather were having? Also how will a 2 or 3 frame split now affect the honey production? Seems like there is so much more to learn in 2nd season bee keeping

  8. #47
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    france
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    1

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    hi everyone

    I've been rearing queens (in small numbers) in observation hives in order to observe the growth and process of the making of queens ; I could see and take photos of how the workers started to use plastic queen cups a few minutes after the grafting opperation...etc..etc.. until the birth of the queen and the mating of the queen ; (removing of the mating sign by the workers....etc)

    This year I want to try the OTS method and see what happens live (photos and filming..)

    I would like to know I some fo you would have nice PHOTOs of the OTS Queens they were able to get and post the photos

    I have been "studying" the emergency queens for several years now and I can tell that sometimes you get very good queens provided the bees used a new comb that never contained brood before ; and some other tims I could get very heavy queens (320 mg!) from brood laid in a old comb!! The results it seems depend on loads of factors (number and age of nurse bees, pollen availability, varroa infestation level..etc)



    I will post some photos this we...

  9. #48
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Grand Rapids MI USA
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    1,554

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    Pics of them making cells on notched old comb would be greatly appreciated.

  10. #49
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    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    I have always just left queenless bees with a frame of brood. they seem to work it out. I have never bothered notching. in fact never really thought to do it. I have seen comments that bees attempting to draw out a worker cell to be a queen cell may not be the most adequate accommodations. I have not seen enough evidence this is true to be concerned. Things I have seen a difference in is a hive without enough resources to rear adequate queens. to few nurses. not enough pollen etc. It falls into the category of. no a worker cell drawn out to be a queen cell may not be the best situation. but as far as I can tell it is completely adequate. Concern and effort to achieve the "Best" is a waste. Plus who is to say an outright queen cell is better anyway. I would like to see a side by side comparison of queens. One reared in a queen cup and the other reared from a worker cell. Then measure time to mate and start laying as well as time required to lay first 4 frames of brood. Or something like that.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Sibiu, Romania
    Posts
    192

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    I tried the "hopkins" method this Saturday and I'm very pleased on how the bees formed a very thick layer on the underside of the frame. Very impressive: it must be about 1 kilo of bees on that single frame.

    https://www.google.ro/search?q=hopki...+queen+rearing

    I think I'll give up grafting for it is way easier and safer this way.

  12. #51
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Minnesota, USA
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    14

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    I am seeing a real difference of opinion on using the OTS method of raising queens, and how the OTS method is forcing the workers to raise emergency cells.

    This brings up a question!

    Doesn't every method of raising queens, force the workers into emergency mode to raise queens?

    How is grafting any different than OTS, other than grafting removes the larvae from the original cell and turned vertically?

    Regardless of method, the colony is made queen-less before introducing cells for queen building.

    Any time a colony is made queen-less they will resort to emergency mode.

    Bars of grafted larvae are just as much emergency queens as what the bees do naturally.

    From what I have researched as well as read here, the key is the bottom of the cell, grafted, OTS or whatever method, need be open in order to raise the highest quality queens, giving the larvae full access to all available royal jelly.

    So for guys like myself, with poor eyesight and hands not as steady as they once were, OTS may be the method to use for raising queens.

    My thought would be, if a person is concerned about the workers not using the notched cells they created, why not use Michael Palmer's method of producing comb with nothing but day old larvae, and notching those frames and place the day old only notched frames into the cell builders? This would guaranty the only age of larvae in the cell builder would be day old.

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lexington, VA, USA
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    465

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Grounded View Post
    My thought would be, if a person is concerned about the workers not using the notched cells they created, why not use Michael Palmer's method of producing comb with nothing but day old larvae, and notching those frames and place the day old only notched frames into the cell builders? This would guaranty the only age of larvae in the cell builder would be day old.
    Very good points. I had not thought of it that way. I did a quick look and could not find anything about MP's method of creating frames of day old
    larvae. Can you save me some time and give me a reference. Thank you. Your post makes sense to me. Created contolled swarms and lots of young queens seems to be the way to go. Mel Disselkoen has helped keep a lot of people in beekeeping.

  14. #53
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Minnesota, USA
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    14

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    billabell:

    Here is the link to a post Michael Palmer posted here on beesource.

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ilding-Methods

  15. #54
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Park County, Montana, USA
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    464

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Notching in a few different places can give you cells on a number of frames so you can start multiple nucs., whereas the bees may lump them all on one frame.
    This is my understanding as well, notching is to get multiple queen cells on multiple frames for queen rearing. If you're simply asking a colony to make their own queen there is no need to notch, bees will select the right larvae.
    5 Production colonies, 1 side by side 5 frame nuc for support- 7 working queens is all I want.

  16. #55
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    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lexington, VA, USA
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    465

    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    Grounded, thanks for the link. A very informative thread. Much of it way above my pay grade and I will never be grafting.

    It is my understanding that Mel recommends that you notch all of the frames that have eggs following the queens concentric laying pattern. With a magnifying glass I can do it.
    Also Mell now uses plastic foundation so he is not cutting out cells.

  17. #56
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    Apr 2011
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    ElDorado,Arkansas,USA
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    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    When trying to propagate really good queens I have notched six frames and gotten cells on all of them. If you want maximum cells, use the procedure mel moved past, of choosing twenty or so cells on a frame and placing a .257 caliber bullet for reloading ammunition in the chosen cells and killing the rest with wheat flour. Then you turn the chosen cells horizontally down and drop out the bullets and set the frame in a device that holds them a couple inches off the top bars of your cell starter and then finisher and the bees will draw them out.
    You described the Hopkins method.I tried it but didnt dust.The first try didnt do so well.The second try I did dust the cells with flour and pulled the bullets out.You can get lots of really good queens using it as you described.

  18. #57
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    Apr 2011
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    ElDorado,Arkansas,USA
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    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    "When I made the OTS notches I chose the youngest larvae on the frames and notched them. They were the perfect size for grafting, but I think given the choice the bees will use the oldest larvae suited to make a queen from. It's their quickest path to a new queen and that's what they are after. If anyone has any input on this, I'd love to hear it."

    Brad Bee I think you are right.When I need a few I make one queenless after a couple days I start watching.I will cull the cells made from older larvae.I really like having a frame of new comb with eggs hatching.You can get really good starts from those.

  19. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
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    Default Re: OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all

    Quote Originally Posted by mmiller View Post
    That's not actually true.
    I use OTS in the spring for my "swarm control" splits. . . . . I place an empty super on the excluder and the second brood box is placed on top of the super. In the top brood box I include 2 frames of eggs/larvae and notch cells on each frame and face the notches together in the center of the box. I put the lid on and . . . .
    mmiller - sounds like a good way to do swarm splits. Why the intermediate empty box above the QE? Is that to further educe the amount of queen pheromone finding its way to the top box? What happens if that empty box is not used?
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

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