First Graft of the Year - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Mar 2015
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    Charleston South Carolina
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Did you use a queenless cell builder/finisher for production of these queens, or did you start them in queenless builder and finish over queen right finished?

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  3. #42
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    Feb 2014
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    Clinton, Iowa
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Queenless starter/finisher. 5 frame over 5 frame nuc, 6 frames of sealed brood on April 3rd grafted April 13th and again on April 20th. Hindsight... I probably should have grafted a bit earlier and used closer to emerging brood, but... it's worked out OK. Cups were completely full of jelly with some left over for both sets of queens. So I think that's about all I could ask for. Thinking about setting up another this weekend as I tore down the builder when I pulled the second set of cells to make up mating nucs.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    7,861

    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    I think now is the time to incorporate some
    vsh genetics into your apiary. Already put in an order for a
    vsh queen coming at the end of this month. Though the
    algogrooming is here it is not enough I think. Continue to
    graft from the survivor will not let me have a tf apiary later on.
    Need to inject some mite resistant capable bees too. Now where is
    that mite biting breeder? Been looking around for a while now.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  5. #44
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    Feb 2014
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    Clinton, Iowa
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    Now where is
    that mite biting breeder? Been looking around for a while now.
    Carpenter Apiaries in Florida is one, I think.
    http://www.carpentersapiaries.com/Pages/default.aspx

    And there's someone out in Washington (state)
    www.northwestqueens.com

    And Dan O'hanlon...
    www.mountainstatequeens.com

    I got pricing from all of those, but haven't bought any. From NW Queens I'm on the list, but so far haven't heard anything. I'd like to bring a couple in just for kicks.

  6. #45
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    Mar 2015
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    Charleston South Carolina
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Yeah it looked good to me. I'm only trying to make about 15-30 queens next year in two rounds should this may be my method. Thanks for your post

  7. #46
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    Feb 2014
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    Clinton, Iowa
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlestonbee View Post
    Yeah it looked good to me. I'm only trying to make about 15-30 queens next year in two rounds should this may be my method. Thanks for your post
    My "method" is basically a mish-mash of Joseph Clements, David LaFerney, and what I've picked up watching Michael Palmer's talks on YouTube.

    But the bottom line is tons of queenless nurse bees and the correct aged larva. It's easy to look at something like what MP does and get a little overwhelmed, but remember you need to scale it. He's probably grafting 2-3 times as many cells as you will be and is going to be. I'm happy with how mine turned out. It looks like (after checking another queen castle today) that I will be either 11 for 18 or 12 for 18. The real head scratcher is the queen castles in opposite corners of my yard... one was 4 for 4... the other 1 for 4. Two of those failures are absolutely crawling with bees on their two frames. I guess that's part of the fun.

    My goal was to get 50% of them back. So I exceeded that. Now we'll see how well they were mated.

  8. #47
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    Mar 2015
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    Charleston South Carolina
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Yeah please update on how well they mated and what the pattern was like. That's my only concern using the Emergency response only. I hope they lay like champs.

  9. #48
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    Dec 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Here is what I'm proposing or at least heading toward that
    direction. Gather all the tf queens available from the vsh LA bee lab, squarepeg's tf,
    algogrooming, and the mite biting. Send all those drones to your DCAs in the early
    Spring time. That means you have to build up the production hives ahead of time to
    supplement feed them when it is still cold, raining, or snow bound depending on what
    bee environment you are in. See Mike Palmer walking on the snows to check
    his nuc and production hives on you tube. This is a proactive bee management approach to
    get those early drones as I have read that these are the best if you want to get the early build up
    production hives. Every year select the best breeders to either trade with members here or for
    sale. This is the best approach when trying to establish a tf hive to build up the mite resistant bees
    in your local area. Bring in the best to establish the best!
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  10. #49
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    Jul 2013
    Location
    Driggs, Idaho, USA
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    152

    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlestonbee View Post
    Yeah please update on how well they mated and what the pattern was like. That's my only concern using the Emergency response only. I hope they lay like champs.
    If you listen to Palmer he mentions that they build the cells with more of a swarm response. That is why 10 days before grafting he places 7 frames of emerging brood into the cell builder (which is already full of bees) after 10 days these frames will hatch and you will have prime swarm conditions and perfect conditions for raising queens.

    Like already mentioned, if you are doing this with nucs you just need to scale down the number of frames by half and it should work just as well.

  11. #50
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    Mar 2015
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    Charleston South Carolina
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Bees won't swarm without a queen so a queenless builder/finisher is working of emergency response. That's why he uses a queen right cell finisher to promote swarm response.

  12. #51
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    Feb 2014
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    Clinton, Iowa
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    It's about the amount of royal jelly and the age of the larva. Not what "mode" the bees are in... At least that's my opinion.

    What's the difference if my queen is raised in queenless starter/finisher who still has ample royal jelly on the day she emerges compared to a queen started under emergency response, finished over a queenright colony who also has ample royal jelly at emergence? Considering both grafted as hours old larva? If someone can point to a legitimate difference besides cell size I'd love to read it.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Yes that's my thing. If you can produce good laying queens it doesn't matter to me. That's what makes this method appealing.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlestonbee View Post
    Yes that's my thing. If you can produce good laying queens it doesn't matter to me. That's what makes this method appealing.
    Emergency response makes plenty of quality queens if that's what you're worried about. Here's an emergency response queen's pattern from last year... Mated in September.


  15. #54
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    Mar 2015
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    Kamloops, BC, Canada
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    I think emergency queens could be OK. I am doing my last snelgrove manipulation this weekend. 10 frames of brood, placed above 2 excluders, the top excluder will be replaced by a snelgrove board in 1 or 2 days depending. I have some top entrances, so after the snelgrove board is in place, I let the foragers feed the top box for a couple of days to pack it with food (lots of feed on the brood frames this time of year) before I divert them back to the bottom queen. I've got some really nice looking cells this way...except for the last batch. Usually I get 5 or so that I can place, but this time only had 3 decent cells to work with.

    So current vision is to get 2 queen systems going in my hives with 2 year survivor queens. I'll put the new daughter queen in the lower boxes, and put the old 2 year survivor in the top boxes. After the snelgrove manipulations are done, I will then set up a cell builder (I know I keep changing my mind) and start experimenting with grafting. I like the five over five set up JW for my scale of operation. In combination with newly established 2 queen systems, and a bunch of newly laying queens in nucs, I should have lots of resources to work with.

  16. #55
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    Mar 2015
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    Fountain County, Indiana
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    I *think* the rational is that you're more likely to get all cells capped under the swarm response, versus the emergency response where they may decide they have done enough cells and leave the rest. I'm pretty sure that's what I heard at the holiday inn express last night. In real life I haven't noticed a difference in my extremely limited experience.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by cheryl1 View Post
    I *think* the rational is that you're more likely to get all cells capped under the swarm response, versus the emergency response where they may decide they have done enough cells and leave the rest. I'm pretty sure that's what I heard at the holiday inn express last night. In real life I haven't noticed a difference in my extremely limited experience.
    I'm not disagreeing with you. But my little 5 frames of brood method capped 21 cells then I grafted after they were capped and they capped another 24 of them literally the next frame over while the other 21 were there.

    I don't know what to make of that other than I do not believe the bees are counting cells.

  18. #57
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    Dec 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    No, they are not counting the cells. The nurse bee's job is to feed as
    many of these cells as they cell builder can make them. No queen less
    bees can ignore a ripe age larva to turn it into a queen cell. This is in their
    nature to do so and we're exploiting their response in such a condition. After 4
    years of grafting I'm still learning the system. No matter what RJ is the key as mentioned by JW.
    So keep that cell finisher stock up with the nurse bees to concentrate all their effort on building those
    healthy cells.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  19. #58
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    Mar 2015
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    Kamloops, BC, Canada
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    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you. But my little 5 frames of brood method capped 21 cells then I grafted after they were capped and they capped another 24 of them literally the next frame over while the other 21 were there.

    I don't know what to make of that other than I do not believe the bees are counting cells.
    Really? I didn't think they would do that. One of my issues is missing queen cells and nothing getting done.

    Now if I only had a use for another 24 cells at a time.

    This discussion has ended up being pretty useful. I think I know what I'm going to do with my failed mating nucs. Combine them in a 5 over 5 nuc box, add some brood, let them raise a few emergency cells and some brood, then place a graft in them. Efficient recycling of resources.

  20. #59
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    Mar 2015
    Location
    Fountain County, Indiana
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    399

    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    I use queenless starter/finishers for cells and my graft went fine. That's what I'll continue to do unless I start running into problems.

  21. #60
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    Mar 2015
    Location
    Charleston South Carolina
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    431

    Default Re: First Graft of the Year

    Yes jwcarlson I'll be using your method. I should have 10 hives and 10 nucs coming through winter. That's my guess accepting a 20% winter death. Im gonna make the first grafts as soon as first drones emerge. Again I'll only need 15-50 queens depending on how season goes. I'll be growing and splitting so I'm going to try and time my rounds to accompany splits. I like how I can keep your super nuc goin by adding a frame of brood every week. I'll keep you posted next year

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