German Black Bees; any left in the USA? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    ... Blacks is meaningless.
    It is not exactly true, Mark. Following your logic all bees in US should be result of "averaging" (mixing genes). It is not happening because there are distinctive phenotypes existed including "black" bees. The presence of distinctive phenotypes may be indicative of distinctive genotypes (not necessary, but!). In another words, the presence of "black" bees in the wildness may indicate that those bees may preserve not only color (phenotype) but unique (different) genotype. Bee's genetics is very complex, but it is known from other areas that even in the mixture, some distinguished pheno/genotypes may be preserved. Simple example - human races. They are mixing, mixing for 10K years, but still exist.
    Серёжа, Sergey

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    I agree with the above post completely. Take the Cordovan recessive genes for
    example. In my little bee experiment I let the queen mated with the local carnis (black)
    drones which dominated the DCAs here. Then on the 4th generation of the Italians color
    virgin queen, when this queen met another Italians with lighter color, the daughter queens will
    turn into a Cordovan, hence preserving the original genetics. But if the daughter met another
    carnis drone then there is a 50/50 chance of being an Italians or carnis worker bees but no Cordovan. My education in
    bee genetics is still at its infancy. But I know which is the recessive and which is the dominate genes just
    like raising the tropical fancy guppies before. i.e. the albinos (red) vs the gray guppy. Quite interesting indeed!
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  4. #23
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    There is only one race of humans.

    So how do you determine whether black bees are German? If they exist, and people want them, why isn't someone, even just one someone, breeding and selling them? Can you even find them for sale in Germany or England?
    Mark Berninghausen

  5. #24
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    "German Black Bees; any left in the USA?"

    I'm skeptical. You'll have to show me.
    Mark Berninghausen

  6. #25
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    .... for sale in Germany or England?
    Mark, "Mother Nature" did not "sell..." There are many things, which are not for sale...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #26
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Then they are insignificant in relation to what exists under management and in Nature.
    Mark Berninghausen

  8. #27
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Bee Whisperer;

    If the European Black Bee, or "German Black" was brought to the US, and many early citizens had those colonies, it is highly possible that some of them made it to the Wyoming territory; and hived many miles from any other known hives. Anyone who has experienced the wide open territory of Wyoming can imagine that there may not be as much possibility for one colony of honey bees to mix with other colonies; let alone another genre of honeybee. Settlers were often so far from each other that it could take days to visit a neighbor. Those homesteads still do exist out there. Also; the miles between homesteads/colonies did not present lots of opportunities for swarms to find new homes. It is flat open grassland.
    If a pioneer took hives to the new territory, and those colonies have stayed in their immediate area with little or no chance to relocate throughout the generations, as suggested in the original post, it is highly possible that those colonies could have remained strong in their genetics. They may not be German Blacks, but they may be some good quality stock that has survived nearly a century on their own. If it were my opportunity, I would like to investigate this colony just out of curiosity. Maybe they are German Blacks.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    That is what I have been thinking. Yet, I still don't have an answer as to whether or not anyone has proven the current existence of the European Black Bee in the US. I get the idea that some genetics may still remain and mixed with others, but as to whether or not there are any known pure strains, I guess the answer is; no one really knows.
    No one famous.

  10. #29

    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    Brother Adam didn't seem to have a whole lot of great things to say about them in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey.
    That's wrong. The buckfast bee is based upon the British black bee. He also introduced the (outright mean/furious) French black bee in the beginning of his buckfast breeding.

    He never liked the Carnica bees although he tried hard to integrate the Carnicas to do his German fellows a favour. Never got much success getting something useful out of Carnicas though.

    A black bee is not so black as the name suggests. The best indicator is the roundish butt whereas other bees have a pointy abdomen.

    There has been genetic testing done on US bees, isn't it? Wasn't there a study who profiled the genetic population of American bees? Tought I read a study somewhere.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    There has been genetic testing done on US bees, isn't it? Wasn't there a study who profiled the genetic population of American bees? Tought I read a study somewhere.
    I think Deborah Delany did a great deal of research on this,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDQNoQfW-9w
    A very good presentation, from 32 mins on talks about apis mellifera mellifera
    Stephen 40+ hives. 6th year. Treat. Germany.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Ok just a thought but do you not think that all bees have some genetics from all strains of honey bees of days gone bye. Breeding can get what ever you want in any creature if you know what you are after. From my knowledge correct me if I'am wrong but there are only two breeds of honey bee and the rest are just Strains of there blood crossed to get what you see today. Someone liked em black so he bread for all black. The same goes for any trait, today we got the upper hand though we can AI and cut the time in half to get what we are after. Me personally they are all good I think we need to breed to get bees that can make it with out any treatment. We are there worst enemy

  13. #32

    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Personally, I am not the worst enemy of my bees.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    In the long run if we treat for every little problem then we are taking there ability to survive as a hole. We can't beat nature no matter how hard we try. Watch some of Michael bush's videos he brings out some very good points.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by nwbell469 View Post
    In the long run if we treat for every little problem then we are taking there ability to survive as a hole. We can't beat nature no matter how hard we try. Watch some of Michael bush's videos he brings out some very good points.
    Nature spent millions of years trying to eliminate cancer and heart disease in humans by allowing everyone with those problems to die fairly rapidly. The experiment utterly failed at curing or preventing either cancer or heart disease. Neglect does not solve problems. Anyone who thinks neglect is the solution simply knows nothing about genetics, nor selective breeding. The only possible result of neglect is back yard bee havers will continue to buy bees from the commercial guys who do not neglect their bees and make those commercial guys more money which is a good thing.

    Dick

  16. #35
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    That's wrong. The buckfast bee is based upon the British black bee. He also introduced the (outright mean/furious) French black bee in the beginning of his buckfast breeding.
    I thought it was based (mostly) on the Italian bee? Citing the fact that only lingustica queens or crosses seemed to survive acarine...?
    Wikipedia was the first search result... I don't have my copy of Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey handy...
    The Buckfast contains heritage from mainly A. m. ligustica (North Italian), A. m. mellifera (English), A. m. mellifera (French), A. m. anatolica (Turkish) and A. m. cecropia (Greek).
    Quote Originally Posted by nwbell469 View Post
    Watch some of Michael bush's videos he brings out some very good points.
    Who's Michael Bush? Never heard of him.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Before Delaney's research there was this one:
    https://beesource.com/point-of-view/a...united-states/

    Both studies show that feral bees are distinct from commercial bees genetically.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  18. #37

    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by nwbell469 View Post
    We can't beat nature no matter how hard we try.
    Nature mostly knows partnerships, commensalisms, mutualism, the web of life, cooperation.

    There is much more cooperation in nature than anything else. In fact you have much more microbial cells than human cells in your body, you live with partners. You are an example of what cooperation of living things means. Same with the bee. We are partners of the bees, like it or not. And bees are our partners.

    If your microbial partners would decide to leave the partnership with you, because your microbes listened to a video they found on youtube, you'd die in a day or two. Life needs partnership and cooperation.

    It is called biom. Human biom for example. Or in case of beekeepers: human beeom. Bees and us. If you hate yourself, that's your decision. If you hate bees, the same. I love humans and I love bees. That's why I care for humans and bees likewise. That's it.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cryberg View Post
    Nature spent millions of years trying to eliminate cancer and heart disease...
    Dick
    Entirely not true: Cancer, heart diseases etc. ARE result of human negligence and disconnection from the nature and normal operation processes (how nature operates). In some sense, these diseases (and some others) are punishment to humankind. Cancer in particular IS a punishment for unhealthy life and environment: smoking, pollution, you name it.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  20. #39
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Entirely not true: Cancer, heart diseases etc. ARE result of human negligence and disconnection from the nature and normal operation processes (how nature operates). In some sense, these diseases (and some others) are punishment to humankind. Cancer in particular IS a punishment for unhealthy life and environment: smoking, pollution, you name it.
    nope, higher incidence of cancer is a result of longer life spans and better understanding of the underlying causes of our symptoms. Heart disease was also low incidence when everyday bacteria were killing us off before we could develop heart disease.

    but I suppose that modern medicine could be "disconnection from the nature and normal operation process"

  21. #40
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    Default Re: German Black Bees; any left in the USA?

    [QUOTE]... higher incidence of cancer is a result of longer life spans and better understanding of the underlying causes of our symptoms. /QUOTE]

    I agree. Human was designed to "operate" for 45 years, but it was not designed to be protected from smocking, pollution and other recent additions to human life-style. The bottom line is that cancer etc. is nothing to do with "million-years evolution."
    Серёжа, Sergey

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