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Thread: Caucasian bees

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Would the Karpatki and Carpathian possibly be the same breed? You bring up an extremely good point traveling for potentially fake bees would indeed be insane.

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    I recived an email from Susan Cobey. Who says she has Caucasians, but claims it would be problematic sending them to mexico.

    That being said. It seems you in the USA have a source, unless anyone believes her stock are not true caucasians?

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Insane like crossing the Atlantic in a kayak with a hive of bees tied on the back and sneaking into Chesapeake Bay.

    So, it is no longer Dr. Rinderer at Baton Rouge, somebody there knows the protocol. Have your university confirm if the bees are Caucasus Mountain Grey bees. Contact Baton Rouge, learn the protocol, jump through all the hoops. You just have to find a motivated customer with money.

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by ahamshep View Post
    I recived an email from Susan Cobey. Who says she has Caucasians, but claims it would be problematic sending them to mexico.

    That being said. It seems you in the USA have a source, unless anyone believes her stock are not true caucasians?
    Susan Cobey crossed Caucasians with Carniolan in other words inseminated Carniolan queens with caucasian germplasm.

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Drone View Post
    Would the Karpatki and Carpathian possibly be the same breed? ...
    Yes, the same.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    ... at Baton Rouge, somebody there knows the protocol. Have your university confirm if the bees are Caucasus Mountain Grey bees...
    Technically, because Georgia is situated in Caucasus Mountains, all bees, originated from Georgia can be called "Caucasian bees." In USSR they had developed system to keep pure lines of bees. They had special "selection stations" to keep pure lines. Each pure queen had a "passport" with lineage description. I believe, identification was based on specific patterns of the veins in the bee winds - cheap and robust. I participated in discussion on Russian Bee-Forum a few years ago and if I remember correctly, the conclusion was that pure line of Caucasian gray bee and Middle-Russia bee does not exist anymore at least in their indigenous areas. They were mixed/substituted with Karpatka, who was more prolific and adaptable. There are a few instances of isolated populations of bees deep in the mountains, but if I remember correctly - it was mixed with Karpatka. Karpatka in that area is similar to AHB - it mixes with locals and quickly substitute them. I do not aware that Georgia managed to preserve gray Caucasian bee, but who knows, may be... the lineage of claimed bees needs to be proven.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Yes, the same.
    Thanks cerezha.

  9. #68
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    But the German bees are not the true Caucasians to my
    understanding. From what I have read on the net there are
    true Caucasians in the deep mountain not affected by any human
    influences. Yes, they still have those bees but you have to verify
    by genetic testing to make sure.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  10. #69
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    Southern Oregon
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Sue and Dr Shepard back crossed their Caucasian line enough times to obtain something like a 99.98% pure Caucasian. This is our third year grafting off of several breeders from Sue and we are very happy with the F1s and F2s thus far. The F1 and F2 hybrids built up nicely for the Almonds and have been prodigious; producing many splits and a honey crop. It has been a very good year here. I am not seeing quite as much propolis production as I had expected, but this could change as they begin to compose a larger percentage of the operation. These bees have been an absolute pleasure to work with and are the best "new" thing I have come across ever... and I have tried just about everything. At minimum one may want to consider these bees as an excellent way to increase genetic diversity in ones operation.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    JBJ - Isn't it neat that science can now make "backward progress" to re-purify a race? The grey bees were very gentle, and produced amazing amounts of propolis. I am surprised to hear that they made a honey crop. I have always heard that a. m. caucasia bees were thought of as "lazy" in the honey department.

    Sergey - Please tell us more about the various bee races from the area! I'd love to hear about the bee races in Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, and all the other places you know of. The long beehives are also of interest.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    ... tell us more about the various bee races from the area! I'd love to hear about the bee races in Russia...
    Well, I have no personal experience in beekeeping in Russia, but I am active in Russian and Ukranian (used to be) bee-forums. It is my understanding, that after USSR collapse, the rich bee-culture was lost. It is true for many States created as a result of USSR dissolution. In USSR they had developed system to keep pure lines of bees - they used very isolated areas to keep particular line of bees. Everyone had access to pure-line queens practically for free. With established beekeeping practice, it was common to have 100-200 kilos of honey per hive/year. After USSR collapse, most of the pure lines were lost or mixed with others. I gather from multiple sources, that A.m.caucasica does not exist anymore in Caucasus Mountains , so "Middle Russian" line. Most of bees in nowadays Russia, are exported mainly from Germany. It is very sad. Following Western tradition, last decade or more, Russians heavy used chemicals to control varroa. It caused "drug-resistance" and now they dig out from the attics old "thermocameras" for thermal treatment against varroa. Since, Russia is huge, there are still "oasises" of bees, who naturally resistant to varroa. In particular, there are rumors, that "Middle-Russian" was not destroyed yet and there are some clusters, who survived ... well, not varroa, but "perestroika!" - in remote areas in Siberia, of coarse... As for south part of Russia, it is all infested by "Karpatka."
    Karpatka was discovered in Ukraine in 20 century (relatively recent). It is very docile, productive (50-80kg/yr), has early start, winters very well even in harsh winter, does not swarm easily (2% normally). The biggest advantage is that Karpatka can switch from one nectar source to another easily - beneficial in bad nectar years. Protects their nest very well. At the same time - great robbers! produce very little propolis (considered disadvantage), can not fight wax moth. Some believe that Karpatka is a variety of Carnica...???
    Серёжа, Sergey

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Yea, and post some hive pics too!
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  14. #73
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    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    I had a few Caucasian queens back in the 1970's and early 1980's. They have slow spring brood development, are very gentle, but glue everything up with propolis. I don't want them ever again, they are not adapted to the climate here in the SouthEast.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

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