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Thread: Caucasian bees

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Considering most beekeeping problems in North America are imported, (hence the regulations) why would anybody repeat the stupidity of unregulated importation of bees? Even bee sperm can carry new viruses.

    People who do it should be in jail for a long time.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    Considering most beekeeping problems in North America are imported, (hence the regulations) why would anybody repeat the stupidity of unregulated importation of bees? Even bee sperm can carry new viruses.

    People who do it should be in jail for a long time.
    Good question. I (legally) imported caucasian queens last year into Canada, I'll be grafting from some of them soon. Viruses and such aren't a huge concern because Canada already imports a ton of queens from the limited few countries we can import from (USA, Chili, Australia, New Zealand, and Denmark, AFAIK), so there wouldn't be anything novel coming in. US and Canadian import restrictions are basically the same... plus you have access to the queens crossed from pure caucasian germplasm. I can't think of any valid reason to smuggle in bees from abroad.

    Edit: to those talking about bringing stock in Canada as quarantine to then bring them back to the US... as I stated above, that's unlikely to work. Canadian import regulations are just as strict, if not moreso, than US regulations. That being said, I have legally imported caucasians, am in Canada, and could rear from them for anyone in the US willing to go through the paperwork and pay for the permits. I do not, however, run a closed mating operation for them, and thus they'd be outcrossed with the rest of my carniolan and italian stock.
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
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  4. #43
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    We have the carnis and Italians crossed with the
    Caucasian too. Breeder queens are a bit expensive but
    the production queens are available at a less expensive price too.
    If we import with the paper works from Canada then it must be the
    pure Caucasians otherwise it is a waste of money as we have those
    crosses here also. Too bad you cannot control their purity.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    That's understandable if you are looking specifically for caucasians, hence why I don't go to actively promote them, even in Canada. I didn't get my own from US breeders, though, as I couldn't find any who looked reputable and would export to Canada. Though for enough volume, I could see some from the Northern states preferring canadian mutts to californian mutts.
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
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  6. #45
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    What makes you think there is nothing new to spread around? From an ecological standpoint a naive statement. As is the idea that screening/inspection tools are up to the challenge of knowing what to keep out, and keeping it out.

    Consider even known viruses. Viruses are quick to change. Moving bees around basically spreads any new variant around, creating chaotic adaptive landscapes where disease and death is rampant. If you want to create a bit of adaptive stability, moving lots of bees needs to restricted to within regions where they would naturally interact.

    I'm not completely against moving bees, but moving bees between continents should be considered the same as moving potentially highly biohazardous material around. This means the strictest screening and limiting importation to perhaps sperm. It would not be done by the private sector, rather as part of an government led agricultural extension/research with goals of genetic diversity, not bringing in and maintaining supposedly pure strains of bees.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    What makes you think there is nothing new to spread around? From an ecological standpoint a naive statement. As is the idea that screening/inspection tools are up to the challenge of knowing what to keep out, and keeping it out.

    Consider even known viruses. Viruses are quick to change. Moving bees around basically spreads any new variant around, creating chaotic adaptive landscapes where disease and death is rampant. If you want to create a bit of adaptive stability, moving lots of bees needs to restricted to within regions where they would naturally interact.

    I'm not completely against moving bees, but moving bees between continents should be considered the same as moving potentially highly biohazardous material around. This means the strictest screening and limiting importation to perhaps sperm. It would not be done by the private sector, rather as part of an government led agricultural extension/research with goals of genetic diversity, not bringing in and maintaining supposedly pure strains of bees.
    Canada imports thousands of queens annually from the US, Chili, Australia, and NZ. What's a few dozen more from said regions? Refusing to import from those regions won't make my neighbors cease doing so. Of course, I'm completely in favor of the heavy limitations to imports that are in place, and the only reason I ever imported bees from abroad was to get caucasians I couldn't find anywhere in North America. And sure, the more intercontinental bee trade is done, the greater the odds of new pathogens entering due to bees illegally smuggled into said zones. But as I already said, refusing to import bees from the US/NZ/AUS/Chili doesn't really reduce the risks of getting novel pathogens because of just how widespread it currently is.
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
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  8. #47
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Can they be sent to Mexico?

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    Considering most beekeeping problems in North America are imported, (hence the regulations) why would anybody repeat the stupidity of unregulated importation of bees? Even bee sperm can carry new viruses.
    The only reason we have bees at all in North America is unregulated importation..............
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  10. #49
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by ahamshep View Post
    Can they be sent to Mexico?
    You must travel to Georgia republic and take away some beequeens

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Yes, they can be send to Mexico.
    But don't ever allow them to mix with the AHB there.
    Now the grey bees are in trouble as we cannot really tell the
    difference by color only by their aggressive behaviors. Besides, who would
    travel that far just to pick up some queens? Sending them through the mail
    is the fastest and least expensive way to go hoping that some will survive with attendants.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Caucasian bees are not agressive bees but Carpatians are

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    I was under the impression they were some of the least agresive bees to work with?

    That was my main interest in caucasian varieties.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    I could not justify traveling to pickup queens sorry. Mail would be the only option as others already are mentioning.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    The only reason we have bees at all in North America is unregulated importation..............
    So I guess you are for spreading of new pests/pathogens around or at least not regulating it?

    The bee industry in NA threw away a huge competitive advantage by being stupid. Because your neighbors were stupid and want to continue to be stupid, doesn't mean one has to be stupid themselves. This stupidity is not limited to beekeepers but is common throughout agriculture. I can pile on case after case and tally the annual economic costs in agriculture/forestry that runs in the billions with huge cumulative costs. Educate yourselves on the risks. And yes if more beekeepers didn't import bees, then overall risks would go down.

    Base practices on biological principles and encourage others to do the same. Don't import the next management problem.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    This was a lot less of a big deal when we lived on Pangea.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Mexico has the AHB!
    Once this genetics got mixed with the gentle Caucasians then
    there is a 50/50 chance that the hive will become aggressive. Now what would you
    call this mix if there is a name for it?
    Yes, you can import to Mexico but can you prevent it from mixing with the AHB genes?
    Now you will have the grey aggressive bees that is my concern all along.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    This was a lot less of a big deal when we lived on Pangea.
    One of my more interesting classes was biogeography where we were looking at fossil distributions in relation to continental drift history.

    Big continents have lots of barriers to genetic flows, deserts, high mountains, climatic zones from north to south, dry to wet. Also the nature of it may be different depending on landscapes. For instance with bees, it may flow along rivers and lakes in grasslands where there aren't many trees. Be interesting to map gene flow in absence of artificial transport because this would determine where distinct sub races of bees would naturally form in the absence of interference.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    Mexico has the AHB!
    Once this genetics got mixed with the gentle Caucasians then
    there is a 50/50 chance that the hive will become aggressive. Now what would you
    call this mix if there is a name for it?
    Yes, you can import to Mexico but can you prevent it from mixing with the AHB genes?
    Now you will have the grey aggressive bees that is my concern all along.
    I was thinking of trying to use moonlight mating to controle any mating in my apiary.

    I've had one hive that was very aggresive. I believe the majority of honey bees in my region have AHB genes, but they are not all overly aggresive.
    Last edited by ahamshep; 06-17-2016 at 09:09 PM.

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    This seemed interesting. Although it is old research and may not apply today. Its sugestive that caucasions may have dominant docile genes.

    ”f1 hybrid (African x Caucasian) were found to be 3.3 times less aggressive than the African bees."

    https://books.google.com.mx/books?id...brazil&f=false

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Caucasian bees

    I am from Northern Caucasus. I particularly was interested in true Caucasian bees. My understanding is that they have disappeared during USSR dissolution. They were substituted by Karpatsky variety (Karpatki), which is very popular in Russia and neighboring countries nowadays. It was my understanding that Karpatki are not aggressive and it was the reason why they are popular. Similar fate was for true "Middle-Russia bees" (nothing to do with American "Russian" bee) - they all gone! I think, the nature of offered bees needs to be verified. I can not speak for Georgia, but my Russian bee-friends are very aware of fake "Caucasian bees" - usually they are Karpatki.

    Regarding importing bees to USA. This whole thread is hilarious! Travel to Georgia to get potentially fake Caucasians is just insane! From another hand, I know beekeeper in Central Valley of Ca, who is importing bees from Germany. I do not know how he did it, but he replenish his stock on regular basis and speaks about this as a matter of fact. Thus, I can conclude, that importing is possible, but not necessary legal. Be aware of fake bees!
    Last edited by cerezha; 06-18-2016 at 12:41 PM. Reason: correction: "Middle-Russia bees"
    Серёжа, Sergey

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