Photos of larvae at the "right stage - Page 2
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 70
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Casey, Il, USA
    Posts
    4,130

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Deknow Those are AMAZING pics.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
    Posts
    2,943

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Amazing.
    Last edited by Lauri; 04-02-2016 at 08:16 PM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    On the last larva pic I cannot tell the difference on
    which way it shed the shell off. Is it from the top down or
    from the bottom up? My guess would be from the bottom up since
    the bottom is brighter (more clear) in body sections of the larva.
    So which way that it shed its shell?
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Great photos guys that was very helpful

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Louisville, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    1,531

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Spectacular photos, Deknow! Very helpful.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    2,573

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    If you put the breeder queen into a Pritchard box at 7 AM on Day 8, the larvae will be exactly the right age at 3 PM on Day 11 (Grafting Day). This reduces (almost elliminates) the chance of a queen "hatching early" because you grafted one too big, and killing all your queen cells.

    (In this case Day Zero is when you prime the Cell Builder with 8 to 10 imported combs of capped brood and REMOVE EVERY QUEEN CELL IN THE CELL BUILDER HIVE.)

    Pritchard Box:

    Wooden ends and bottom, queen excluder sides so the workers can come and go, tight fitting top that the Breeder Queen CANNOT get out of. It gets up to 3 combs that fit inside it - usually a bit shorter than the normal frames if the Pritchard Box fits inside the hive. You can even use a Jay Smith frame to really limit her egg laying.

    Note: the combs for the Breeder Queen to lay in can be drawn on black plastic foundation, making grafting a lot easier. The larvae really show up better against the black background.

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Louisville, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    1,531

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Where does one acquire a Pritchard box?

  9. #28
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Comox Valle, BC, Canada
    Posts
    21

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Thanks for all the photos they are excellent, exactly what I was hoping for. I think I will trap the breeder queen for at least the first go around though, I'd like to see and know the timing is right. Should make it easier to choose correctly on subsequent attempts.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    I think I saw the Pritchard box on ebay.
    A white plastic cage acting like a QE on all sides that will fit either
    a 2 or 3 frame in it. Why not just use a QE cut to fit the
    box for the 1 or 3 frame divider? I can see a 3x5" queen introductory
    cage with a QE on secured to the empty cell comb.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,770

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    It would be hard to beat the age of the one in MP's photo.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    5,183

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    I know that the conventional wisdom is that smaller/younger is better for grafting, but I wonder if this is based on any real science? According to some sources worker and queen larvae are all fed the royal jelly diet for up to 3 days. I can't see any great reason for grafting larvae that are that old but the slightly larger ones are considerably easier for me to use, and I don't see any quantifiable difference in the resulting queens. Admittedly not science.

    I'd be willing to bet that commercially produced queens are not all grafted from the youngest possible stock.

    Those are some great pictures btw - thanks.
    Since '09-75H-T-Z6b

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,953

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    David, a few thoughts on your post.

    1. I tend to agree with your questioning the conventional wisdom. I know of one breeder who bucks convention by only using a couple of queens to graft from for the season, and he grafts from older larvae than the norm. His mating nucs are in flight distance of 1000 of his best hives, so the idea of using just a few good queens with a huge drone diversity makes some sense. I tend to think that, if in his circumstances (which may unique in important and unknown ways), using older larvae were problematic, he would notice it.

    2. I think the younger larvae are probably more robust for handling, and that may be a difference.

    3. In contrast to what I wrote above, I think the large producers (I've seen slide shows from Miksa) all use carefully timed confining of queens, and use very young larvae. I also think that (based in part on the Miksa photos), those doing hundreds a day every day are using more traditional grafting tools, not the chinese one. ..I'd make the analogy of doing CAD (computer aided design)....if you do a little of it, you use the mouse a lot....if you do a lot of it, you use keyboard shortcuts (which are more clunky to learn but faster to use). Once you are timing the eggs, getting them at a young age is just as easy as getting them when older.

    4. I graft from the youngest larvae I can, but I'm not sure it is necessary (it may be more resilient to mechanical manipulation, temp, and environment disruption). I've also been doing most of my queen cell planting 48 hours after grafting (before cell is capped).
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,953

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    I just tend to graft from well fed larvae that don't yet look 'chubby'.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,953

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Another observation that might be useful to others.

    I purchased a large magnifier (mounted to the table with an articulating arm) with a ring of LED's for lighting.

    The reflection of the individual LED's in the pool of jelly resembles the slightly segmented body of the young larvae (at least to my eyes). Probably a diffuser of some kind would help with this problem, but I found it very hard to see what was going on.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    4,211

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    I know that the conventional wisdom is that smaller/younger is better for grafting, but I wonder if this is based on any real science?
    Not sure if you consider this real science, but it may be worth a quick scan.

    http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/grafting.htm

    I totally agree that 2 or 3 day old are far easier, but no one ever said this should be easy

    I target the absolutely smallest larvae possible. I'm jealous of those who claim that the Chinese tool is so easy, but after trying numerous times, over many years, I've totally given up on that tool. What I've found is that if you want to lift 2-3 day old with the Chinese tool it is pretty easy, but REALLY small larvae I find it very awkward and wind up wasting many. I find two things very helpful: 1) get the grafting frame well-fed in a cell builder 1 day prior to grafting, and 2) use the JZ-BZ tool. I really like the rigidity of the tool the ability to really scrape the bottom of the cells if needed. It also provides good feedback to your fingers when touch something, which is not the case with the Chinese tool. At the end of the day, use the tool that works for you, but try several before you decide the best. I've also heard that not all Chinese tools are equal, but I have about a dozen and they all stink. I got to conclude that it’s just the operator...
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,107

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...and this is getting the grafting tool under the larva:
    I would prefer to see you pick up the larva from the convex side and not the concave side.

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,953

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    I understand having a preference. In my own experience I haven't noticed a difference. If I were to really think about it, I could probably come up with some good (sounding) reasons for doing it either way.

    Pretty much no matter what I do, if I graft it onto a microscope slide and look at how it is doing, it seems unperturbed, and is just an eating machine.

    I also don't do a whole lot of grafting, and I never confine the queen to have known age larvae to work with. ....if I were doing more of it, I would probably want to be more systematic in both areas.

    If you find one direction better than another, is it from flubbed grafts that you know aren't right (and redo immediately), or something that you notice at a later stage?
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  19. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    5,183

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Quote Originally Posted by AstroBee View Post
    Not sure if you consider this real science, but it may be worth a quick scan.

    http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/grafting.htm

    I totally agree that 2 or 3 day old are far easier, but no one ever said this should be easy

    I target the absolutely smallest larvae possible. I'm jealous of those who claim that the Chinese tool is so easy, but after trying numerous times, over many years, I've totally given up on that tool. What I've found is that if you want to lift 2-3 day old with the Chinese tool it is pretty easy, but REALLY small larvae I find it very awkward and wind up wasting many. I find two things very helpful: 1) get the grafting frame well-fed in a cell builder 1 day prior to grafting, and 2) use the JZ-BZ tool. I really like the rigidity of the tool the ability to really scrape the bottom of the cells if needed. It also provides good feedback to your fingers when touch something, which is not the case with the Chinese tool. At the end of the day, use the tool that works for you, but try several before you decide the best. I've also heard that not all Chinese tools are equal, but I have about a dozen and they all stink. I got to conclude that it’s just the operator...
    I didn't say that I use older larva, only that it's easier and I can't see any quantifiable difference when I have. I'm subject to the conventional wisdom too. I use a JZBZs tool as well, or a German SS tool - never could get a Chinese tool to work like it should. I usually put the grafting material frame in the cell builder a day or two before I graft and then feed it to get it all juicy, and I cut down the cells, and use an optivisor, etc, etc...

    Interesting study, and it does seem to show measurable physical differences between younger and older larva. I would be more interested in actual performance differences though.

    Here's the thing - that study shows very small differences between 1-2 day old larva - I don't think we are talking about even 1 day old larva when we are trying to use the very youngest possible ones for grafting - more like a few hours old. Check out this picture...



    How much difference in age do you think that there is between the "just right" and the "too old" larva? I'm gonna say that all of the eggs on that side of that frame were laid within a 24 hour period - probably more like a 12 hour period. Those "just right" larva hatched within the last 3-4 hours I bet, and the "too old ones" are less than 8 hours old. I'm basing those guesses completely on my observation that a queen can lay up both sides of a medium frame in less than 24 hours when I give her a frame of comb that she likes in the right area of the brood nest. So the bigger easier to graft larva that I'm talking about are only a few hours - not days - old.

    I think that when we look at a frame of brood like that and the older ones look SO different than the younger ones that we aren't grasping the fact that they are only a few hours apart. Am I wrong about this? Are the big larva in the picture much older than the unhatched eggs? That would mean that the queen went back and forth in the hive for some reason wouldn't it?

    I'd really like to see an hour by hour comparison images or time lapse video from hatching to 3 days old - or even 1 day old.
    Last edited by David LaFerney; 04-07-2016 at 03:33 PM.
    Since '09-75H-T-Z6b

  20. #39
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Chardon, Ohio
    Posts
    689

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    Here is a link with pics of larva at different ages after egg laying:

    http://www.coloss.org/beebook/I/misc-methods/2/5/4

    I would judge the too old larva to be roughly 24 hours older than the right age larva in the post above.

    That said I have read a lot of conflicting opinions on how young larva really need to be. Some people claim a 24 hour old larva is every bit as good as a two hour old larva. I have no real opinion personally as I try and use larva sized like those labeled right age. I may well be making extra work for myself. It is a lot easier to graft them as they get a bit bigger. I also do not think it would be all that easy to do a study and determine the differences between queens raised from these two sizes. You might well not see any differences until the queen is a year or more old. I suspect you would need to do side by side comparison of maybe 25 queens from each size larva to get real reliable data and that is a lot of resources that most of us are not going to dedicate.

  21. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: Photos of larvae at the "right stage

    nice link there dick, many thanks.

    i plodded through a round of grafts today selecting the smallest larvae i could find. judging by the coloss photos i would say they were between just hatched and 1st instar.

    i discarded about 1 in 5 or so because i couldn't see the larvae well enough to be sure about it once i had it on the tool.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •