Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit
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  1. #1
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    Default Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Some of you already own this unit. Whether it be the whole setup or just the end piece. You probably special ordered it or already live in Europe.

    Recently, blue sky bee supply decided to carry these units. Once I heard about this I jumped on one. I've been in the works myself to try and duplicate something similar, but since it's now going to be available through blue sky, I just went with what's tried and true.

    So pertaining to this thread, I want to talk about this delivery device more and have others shed more light than this. Keep it on topic to this device.

    For those of you who already own the unit, give us your feedback on it and tell us soon to be's the ins and outs of it!

    Per the owners manual, it looks like the required dosage amount is much smaller per hive. Only one quarter a gram per hive. A 15 second treatment...

    The hopper holds 50 grams. That's a potential 200 hives per hopper full! 50 minutes to treat that many hives.

    So, share your thoughts and sentiments!

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Can you link it?
    www.facebook.com/hives2honey Oxalic Vaporizers, supplement and more!!!!!! Check me out.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    I'm assuming that this is the item.

    http://www.blueskybeesupply.com/hot-...cid-vaporizer/

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Quote Originally Posted by hex0rz View Post
    Per the owners manual, it looks like the required dosage amount is much smaller per hive. Only one quarter a gram per hive. A 15 second treatment...

    The hopper holds 50 grams. That's a potential 200 hives per hopper full! 50 minutes to treat that many hives.
    Regardless what the owners manual says I don't think 1/4 gram per hive will be enough, I dose at 2 grams per hive (double deep) and still have to do several treatments to get the mites. No negative effects on the bees that can be noticed at that level.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Here it is on the mfg site including the instructions.

    http://www.legaitaly.com/en/catalog/...da-220v-detail

    I purchased the unit last season. The instructions have changed since I purchased it - the recommended temperature settings have been reduced. After using it last fall, I had some doubts about 15 seconds and found myself treating for 15 seconds or until there was visible vapour coming out of all cracks etc. I used it as a final cleanup when the hives were broodless (when wrapping for winter) instead of OA dribble. It would have been nice to do a side-by-side comparison of it vs OA dribble, but I just didn't have time.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Zhiv9, thanks for posting the link. That's where I got my information from.

    So with the recommend 15second treatment interval, what are you noticing? Lackluster performance, or accurately stated results?

    Are the statements from the manual up to par per your experience?

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Regardless what the owners manual says I don't think 1/4 gram per hive will be enough, I dose at 2 grams per hive (double deep) and still have to do several treatments to get the mites. No negative effects on the bees that can be noticed at that level.
    You may be right, but I do think there is difference between forcing the vapour into the hive and letting it rise passively. In cold climates forcing the warm vapour into the hive will loosen up the cluster and help ensure more bees are exposed.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Quote Originally Posted by hex0rz View Post
    Zhiv9, thanks for posting the link. That's where I got my information from.

    So with the recommend 15second treatment interval, what are you noticing? Lackluster performance, or accurately stated results?

    Are the statements from the manual up to par per your experience?
    As I stated above, I haven't properly evaluated the performance. After treating a hundred hives with it, I felt that 15 seconds was fine for solid bottom boards and tighter fitting equipment, but leaky equipment of SBB's needed longer.

    The manual doesn't really make a lot statements or claims. They recommend treating when the colony is broodless, which is sound for OA in general since it doesn't kill mites in brood.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    You may be right, but I do think there is difference between forcing the vapour into the hive and letting it rise passively. In cold climates forcing the warm vapour into the hive will loosen up the cluster and help ensure more bees are exposed.
    Well maybe. My climate is not particularly cold but even so you won't break the cluster in 15 seconds. Here is a video I made of doing my hives you can see the time used is longer, the weather is warm, and even so I am not certain of full penetration. Click to make it play, some versions of IE won't play this video, if not you may have to try Chrome or something.I posted this before so apologies to those who have seen it.


  11. #10
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Hey mister! I remember that video now. I didn't realize it was you that had it. So realistically, what is 50 grams treating? What are the realistic expectations? Have you done mite drops or any other method to monitor the efficacy of the device?

    Also, can you by chance give an ID measurement for the inlet side of the device so I can get an idea of what the heat gun heat shield probe size has to be? Slightly worried it'll only work with certain heat guns.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    I have used it and quite like it. A lot of vapour comes out in a hurry when the OA is hot enough to liquefy. You can see the vapour seeping out cracks at the top of the hive within moments of pointing it within the entrance opening. Super easy and quick to use.
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  13. #12

    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    I like it very much, too. I use 220 degree Celsius when vaporizing with this unit. I preheat it for 15 minutes. I do 50-100 hives with one load. I reckon 0.5 g is enough. There was a huge field trial in Germany, where mite kill occured with 0.5 g. The 2.0 g is just to make sure, the user doesn't burn the half of it. Bee damage happened with 5.0 g oxalic acid per vaporizing.

    I even do less than 15 seconds. It is important to get the device running properly first. It has to smoke like hell. White vapor. You need to play with the temperatures of the heat gun. The hive has to smoke for about a minute after you removed the device. So you pull the gun out, hive continues to smoke.

    It is super quick and easy. Have not counted mites before&after, but from what I've seen, it pretty much wipes out the mites.

    When brood is present in summer, you need to vaporize every 3 days, five times in a row. Check mite population after that, and do another round of necessary. Bees don't get hurt much or at all. A friend experimented to see when the bees get hurt by multiple vaporizing. He treated as much as 25 times and couldn't see any visible damage. The hives did winter just fine.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Bernhard do you still have that video of you using it? That was awesome I would love to see again if you could post.

    Hex0rz I haven't done mite counts sorry but have looked afterwards & seen plenty of dead ones on the front door. Not very scientific I know.

    Have been doing around 25 hives from a 50 gram fill, or 2 grams a hive, but if Bernhard says 1/2 a gram is enough then I'll take his word. Just a question Bernhard, is that one deep or two?

    Re the measurement, I have one heat gun that doesn't fit and two that do, but the difference is so small it is beyond the technology I have to measure it. You will probably have to take the unit to your hardware store and select one that fits, most do.

  15. #14

    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    No, deleted it. But I have one video where I show the device and the heat gun.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdaJ1jWpIPc

    The gun I use is: Steinel 348212 heat gun HL 2010E
    Last edited by BernhardHeuvel; 03-10-2016 at 05:32 AM.

  16. #15

    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Just a question Bernhard, is that one deep or two?
    I have either types. I simply dip the pipe into the front entrance, let it blow the smoke inside and when it is coming out of all cracks and openings of the hive, I go to the next one. The hive has to smoke for a minute or so, after you removed the device. The hive stands there and smokes.

    The main trick is, that the mite's feet catch the crystals, where it builds up and makes the mite drop down to the floor board (or through the bottom screen). For this to happen, the vapor has to circulate for some time inside the hive. So one has to observe how long the vapor stays in his hives.

  17. #16

    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    The mite has some sticky pads (empodium) that look like this: (my own microscope pictures)





    Detail of the sticky pad at the end of the mite's foot:


    Note that there is an open channel going from the pad up into the leg. That channel is open constantly and provides moisture of the mite's body fluid to the pad, so it stays sticky.

    A beekeeper I know, Gerhard Brüning, made some impressive pictures of the mites after an oxalic acid treatment:


    His description in German: http://www.varroamilbe.ch/bericht3.pdf

    It seems that the vaporized oxalic crystals condense where it is moist, and that is at the sticky pads of the mites. All the pads have a buildup of oxalic acid crystals and the mites drop off the bees.

    Those crystals disappear after about 2 hours and the mites are even able to crawl back up upon a bee. But: it seems the oxalic acids dilutes into the mite through that open channel right into the mite where it causes damage to the inner organs. So there are two effects: the immediate effect is the dropping (preferably through a screen bottom board out of the hive) and the second effect is the destroying of the inner organs of the mites. From the drop I'd guess that'll be one to three days after the treatment, probably there are longterm effects, too.

    Bees don't get damaged much, although they too have a sticky pad at their feet. But there is a difference: bees can close that channel between the pad and the foot. There is a ring-like structure that can close down that channel. It is most probable - but not proven yet - that this is why bees don't get hurt much by the oxalic acid vapor.

    Anyway, for us it is important to make the vapor circulating inside the hive for long enough, to make it condense at the mite's sticky pads. I reckon, dosage doesn't really matter much other than providing enough crystals to build up with type of vaporizer you have. The varrox vaporizer has been tested intensively and was found to be very effective. Other devices were not half as good. Temperature and other parameters will play into it. If you burn the oxalic acid and not vaporize it, there will be no buildup of crystals, just smoke.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Hi, Bernhard

    Can you tell the make and model of your microscope, please. Very good pictures. Is it digital microscope. I bought this microscope for nosema counts but the quality is not so good for that purpose.
    http://www.celestron.com/browse-shop...tal-microscope

  19. #18

    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    With sublimation, varroa mortality was high, 81%, even at the lowest dose .56 g, and higher still at the three higher doses. However, the post hoc tests showed that these differences among doses were not statistically significant. Overall, the trickling method was the least effective and sublimation the most effective in terms of dose mortality. The sublimation method gave high mite mortality at all doses used. Dose differences were significant when the lowest subli- mation dose was compared to the three highest doses combined (F = 12.89, p = .001).
    extracted from: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...9.2015.1106777

    Hasan Al Toufailia, Luciano Scandian & Francis L W Ratnieks (2015) Towards integrated control of varroa: 2)comparing application methods and doses of oxalic acid on the mortality of phoretic Varroa destructor mites and their honey bee hosts, Journal of Apicultural Research, 54:2, 108-120, DOI: 10.1080/00218839.2015.1106777

  20. #19

    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Quote Originally Posted by m_pchelari View Post
    Can you tell the make and model of your microscope, please.
    Yes, it is a digital microscope. It is that one here: http://www.mueller-optronic.com/Micr...ml?language=en

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Let's talk about lega vaporizer unit

    Wow. Great stuff Bernhard. Thank you!

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