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If the focus was exclusively on honey no regards to overwintering?

7K views 44 replies 21 participants last post by  AJ7 
#1 ·
Does anyone manage bees exclusively for honey production with no thought of overwintering? If the objective was to only make honey would you manage bees differently?

Two deeps, with an excluder between and a queen in each deep for more brood with another excluder above and supers for a faster build?

Could you buy a nuc or 3lb package, feed and patty as much as they would take until the flow starts, then install an excluder over brood boxes and start adding supers, then after the last flow, shake them out, extract and put the woodenware away till next spring?

It seems that I have read about northern beeks doing this in the past. It seems that it would cut down on the workload and reduce or eliminate the problems of some pests/problems. When beeks used old style hives, I think they trashed the hives getting honey out?

If you leave XXlbs of honey for overwinter, wouldn't that almost buy another package or nuc? No fall feeding, wrapping hives or fall mite treatment?

I enjoy overwintering challenge, not planning on doing this, but just curious if it would be one way to keep bees? If you caught good swarms early and managed them only for honey would it be worth it?

I understand the location and conditions could either make or break. It is getting closer to bee season here, I thought this would be an interesting discussion. Ken
 
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#2 ·
Does anyone manage bees exclusively for honey production with no thought of overwintering?
Yes, it would be better if you could sell of the colonies. If you are going to put sugar or syrup in the brood nest I wouldn't combine it with your honey supers. You could use it for feed on next years packages.
 
#4 ·
That has been done by some "bee havers" in the past. Would it make sense to gather eggs from chickens up to Autumn, then kill the chickens and start over again with chicks next Spring? I think most of us are "bee keepers" because we enjoy the bees and the challenges of working and learning about them too much to use that manner of harvesting all the honey and letting to bees die or killing them. For most of us, it's more about the bees than the honey.
 
#9 ·
Would it make sense to gather eggs from chickens up to Autumn, then kill the chickens and start over again with chicks next Spring?
Don't wait. Can the meat and start the new chickens at the time of culling so they are laying in the spring. It is OK to kill farm animals. No one I know has ever called a farmer a farm haver.
 
#6 ·
This is not what I do, but personally I wouldn't make such broad statements such as - that's not beekeeping. There is a big difference between what someone needs to do to make a living and provide for their family, and a few hobby hives in the back yard.

And btw, the vast majority of chickens are cogs in an industrial production system, and when their production declines just a little they become "chicken and chicken by products" on a pet food or processed food label - or composted into "organic" fertilizer. If they are males then their life ends on day one most of the time.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged..."
 
#14 ·
Didn't mean to be judgmental, I was raised on a farm and wrung lots of chickens' necks and processed them by hand for freezing, cooking, etc. We always had beef cattle, hogs, etc. processed (nice word for slaughtered) for eating plus hunted for squirrels, rabbits, ducks, and geese (no deer where I lived as a kid).

You do what you have to do in your apiary, if it works for you, that's what you have to do. I should have prefaced the statements with "it's not my personal idea of bee keeping." Didn't mean to body slam any one.
 
#7 ·
I was concerned that this would go sideways with some folks. Don't mean it to be that, just interested in all things bees.

Some folks must do this, maybe those that do this turn the bees into an insect rescue organization? Maybe there is one, check the net? Somewhere around the pit bull rescue group? They can romp in a field of clover all winter, then find good homes in the spring? Possibly rehabilitation, maybe a grant? This could turn out to be a golden opportunity for a special bee lover?

I think a lot of people actually do use chickens for eggs then kill them. Not me though, I promise! I love my bees! they are out flying today, fun stuff.

A description is not animal abuse, it is a description of how some may use animals for food.

Not me though, I love my bees. I hope I never lose any, although some do die every day, I try my best!

Long live the bees (at least mine, you do what works for you)! Ken (not a bee abuser)
 
#8 ·
Buy packages, harvest honey and wax, pollen and propolis too if you can in your area, and sell the shook out hives into customers boxes in the late summer/early fall. Start over again in spring buying packages. Nothing wrong with this. Saves having to over winter the the bees. No need to store the comb either, worrying about wax moths. It's a sound business plan if your area will support it.
 
#12 ·
From what I understand about individual bee life span, and depending on the date of last flow, nothing in this plan need be construed as abusive to the animals. This is not how I manage my bees, but it is an interesting model.

A possible variation would be to shake the queen and nurse bees into a nuc, put the brood in with them and use the queenless original as a non-distracted honey factory until it dies out. Then feed the nuc as necessary to overwinter so you don't need to buy packages in the spring.
 
#19 ·
A friend of ours used to keep bees in Canada (Edmonton, Alberta). They put out packages in the spring on alfalfa grown for seed and killed the bees in the fall and collected all the honey. Don't know if they kept the drawn comb or not, but I may ask when I see him again.

yields were very high -- 250 lbs per hive -- and Edmonton is a little close to the Arctic Circle to overwinter bees very well, it gets sorta cold up that way between October and May. However, unless you have a large area of cropland producing honey like alfalfa grown for seed does, it's unlikely this would work anywhere else. Even clover isn't as good, buckwheat might get close.

He was quite disappointed in the yields we get in this neck of the woods. Having to overwinter them was too much work and expense, so he quit keeping bees (and he was in his 70's by then, too)

There are beekeepers who take as much honey in the fall as they can and feed back large amounts of HFCS for the bees to winter on, there is a dollar and change difference (or more) in the price you get for the honey vs the cost of feeding syrup. Probably not the best thing for the bees, but bees aren't pets for someone doing that, they are livestock to make a living with.

Bees kept in skeps were traditionally killed to retrieve the honey, and were replaced by catching swarms.

Peter
 
#22 · (Edited)
A friend of ours used to keep bees in Canada (Edmonton, Alberta). They put out packages in the spring on alfalfa grown for seed and killed the bees in the fall and collected all the honey. Don't know if they kept the drawn comb or not, but I may ask when I see him again.

yields were very high -- 250 lbs per hive -- and Edmonton is a little close to the Arctic Circle to overwinter bees very well, it gets sorta cold up that way between October and May.
Geography and facts are ?????????

Bees are wintered readily in Alberta. Most are wintered outdoors however some indoors. Wintering losses last winter were some 10%.

It's a long ways to the Artic circle from Edmonton - some 900 miles.

2014 average yield was 125 lbs. 2105 was a good year with average yield of 145lbs.

http://germination.ca/alberta-honeybee-colonies-canada-2015/
 
#20 ·
As long as this thread has taken the turn it has, way off topic, how about the mites?

they are just trying to get by doing what they do, I heard that some bee/mite havers actually came up with a barbaric plan to heat acid inside of a hive and kill healthy mites in the prime of their lives!

Let's not even bring up what some would do to hive beetles or wax worms. They are just trying to do their jobs, raise families and maybe put a little something away for retirement.

Shouldn't we let wasps have a seat at the table too? I mean, they were here first.

Think of the sexual discrimination of those with green brood frames that freeze baby drones just because they are male! I bet if they were females, this would stop!

Would it be OK to feed bees to chickens to fatten them up?

Perspective is a wonderful thing, I don't do that particular thing so it must be wrong. I don't mind nursing bees thru the winter, feeding, wrapping, medicating and treating, so no one else should either.

Because this is an open forum, I promise that someone will jump in to argue some of the points in this post, (you know, but mites are hurting my bees ect., etc.) before you do, try this, don't.

Let it go, this was not meant to be anything more than a post to ask about ways some keep bees. If you piped in with off topic dribble. Start your own thread.

I don't want to kill any bees, I like my bees, I respect anyone else's right to keep (or not) keep bees in a way that works for them. Wasn't the old model to raise them in a straw hive and tear it apart after flow?

Ken (bee lover)
 
#21 ·
Lol, Ken the bee lover,
It use to be an excellent business model for the northern Beekeepers. Basically the who reason the package industry established itself. But now after politics and a shift in the US Canada business models, I doubt it would ever return to the way " it use to be".
Those same business fundamentals have changed, but if politics allowed such to occur again, I'm thinking more of a hybrid model would re establish.
I've taken flack for siding on this issue, so let's say I'm sitting on that Barbed wire fence separating US and Canadian bees :) lol
 
#23 ·
There are a lot of Africanized bees where I live. If they're extremely vicious and unworkable I wait till November and completely harvest that hive down to nothing. I get enough workable bees catching swarms so that I don't have to cope with too much of that. I remove their combs and brood to put into other hives. More like a resource than a hive I'm going to keep forever, because they're very hard to requeen. They draw comb, donate brood, make a little honey, and then I help them to bee heaven. I don't actually kill them I just remove all the resources.
 
#24 ·
Your close to how a honey centric keeping is done.

A few things to keep in mind.

Take this year for example. Packages were ordered in Feb. It used to be you could get a package 2nd week in april. Then it was the last week of April. This year its May.

In the past first dandelions pop first to second week in April here in central IL. That has traditionally been recognized as the start of your spring flow. So this year, the new packages will arrive (potentially) 4 weeks into our spring flow. That is significant lost time to gather nectar for honey.

I know a popular method for honey-centric keeping is to take all honey late summer early fall then feed back syrup or HFCS. If sugar is $0.5/lb and honey is $5/lb you can see how feeding back a manufactured product for winter stores is a popular option.

As for use of queen excludes and what size supers, IMHO thats all comes down to personal preference for keeping as there is little scientific data that definitively shows one method is better than another.
 
#27 ·
It's an excellent business model. You don't have to worry about treatments, you are treatment free. You can harvest all the honey, as you have to leave none for the bees. You build comb inventory which vastly aides build up from packages the next year. Those that love bees can buy your blown out bees. The only winter prep you need do is take care of your comb and replace lost/damaged equipment.

Someone else mentioned The Honey Housholder. I think that is pretty much his business model.
 
#29 ·
I know two semi local beekeepers who have a hard time getting there bees through spring and often end up starting over with packages every year. We are cold enough here that they don't have to worry about wax moths that time of year so most years they would be money ahead if they extracted all the honey in the fall then let the bees die. They would have more honey, wouldn't have to get the hives ready for winter, and when they get new bees in the spring they would already have drawn comb giving them a good start.
 
#39 ·
It's not rhetoric, I'm not trying to pursuade you to do anything. You stated your opinion, I stated mine, you wished the topic would go away. I engaged you to find out more, repeting exactly what you said "I would consider some of your description animal abuse" and you said I was putting words in your mouth. (?)

All I'm trying to point out is this is a valid management style for thoes that wish to engage in it and further more I support thoes that do and thoes that don't have this managment style. I think this is a great post and opens up a great discussion for some that have never thought of doing this. Furthermore it keeps honey flowing and bee breeders in business, creating jobs all around.

I totally agree with you, I will also keep running a profitable business overwintering bees.....and producing nucs to sell to the guys who let their bees die. ;)

Incase you for some reason still think I have something against you, it is the opposite. I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions and practices, but I don't think that anyone has the right to push their managment style or ideology on thoes that choose to do something different.

P.S. I'm not sorry for what I said, I'm sorry if you allow yourself to be offended by someone who simply has a different opinion.
 
#41 ·
Maybe the problem is that it is two-faced to freeze drone brood or kill mites, or squish queens or kill hive beetles or wax worms or other things that need to be done sometimes to raise bees while condemning others methods.

Some realize that others just babble on.

Is it two faced to ignore things we need to do to keep bees or convenient to say you like to spend your winter treating, wrapping, feeding, managing bees as opposed to sending them south or other options?

Shaking out laying workers could be reality, why not protest that also, offer to take them in. What about mean bees or crossed bees that are difficult handle?

I would want it to go away too if I posted the dribble that you did when the thread started. Maybe instead of it going away, you could retract your post move along and we could learn about options on bee keeping.

I love my bees, I do not want to shake them out, I need something to do in the winter, it's a hobby, not everyone feels that way. We don't all need to be tied to bees in the winter.

I learn from everything.

Ken, bee lover
 
#42 · (Edited)
My comment about animal rights activists was intended to be purely tongue in cheek. Sorry if anyone didnt get that and were offended. I overwinter many bees, but the maintaining of mean bees is not wise. If you had ever seen a double deep, 2nd season Africanised hive in action, you'd realise they are kept small, and robbed out, for safety, and self defence.
Re: genetic improvements- the removal of vicious bees is improving the local stock here, in my opinion.
 
#44 ·
OK, now that we got that settled ...
If you adopt the practice of dumping bees in the fall does that now make you a behaver? Can you be called a beekeeper if you have no bees in the winter? Trying to keep the terminology straight.
 
#45 ·
Ken I found your original post very intriguing, I had never looked at from that stand point.

A hybrid style apiary might be a good setup, with a certain percentage of hives as honey producers that will be allowed to die off in the fall while keeping a number of hives over winter to supply new colonies in the spring to restart the cycle. The new spring colonies (honey) could be allowed to raise their own queen. If we could eliminate having to purchase bees or possibly queens then the profitability should go way up.
 
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