Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    At the time of the split there were all stages of egg, larvae and brood. The returning foragers performed nursing duties but that same day brood was emerging and the cycle has continued except for making queen cells.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Yes, field bees will revert.

    I've considered the same for making a cell builder, if you didn't put any brood frames you wouldn't have to worry about knocking down queen cells they pulled themself. I used a modified version for making queenless splits last year and was easy and worked great, so it should work fine for making a cell builder.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbin View Post
    What happens to the open brood in the old box when all the nurse bees are removed. Will the forgers take over the nursing duties? Take the queen out and this looks like a great way to build a cell starter.
    There's gobs of capped brood in a nearly swarmed colony. The foragers will take over, but when a real swarm happens that's kind of the name of the game too. I took all those bees and then a couple days later they're bearded and covering the entire double deep again. I bet there were close to 10 frames of capped or almost capped brood in the one I shook out.

  5. #24
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    Grovertown , In , USA
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    well this sounds interesting. i think i`ll try this on a hive.

  6. #25
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    Galveston County, TX, USA
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Wow, that sounds really interesting. Better than trying to anticipate a swarm and hoping they'll congregate somewhere you can retrieve them...

  7. #26
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    You will find that a lot of young bees will hang onto the comb. You dont shake hard like when clearing for extraction; just enough to make examination for queen cells easier. The queen is the easiest to dislodge. Some of the oriented bees which return to the original hive will easily revert to nurse duties so feeding any open brood in the old hive should not be a problem.

    You can choose to pull some of the frames of older brood and capped brood out. They will not mature in time to add anything to that years harvest in most cases anyway. There is lots of tuning options depending on your motives.
    Frank

  8. #27
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    san diego california usa
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    What are the chances of just ending up with a box full of nurse bees? I just tried the Taranov method and it seemed to work just as it's supposed to.I left all brood and stores in the old hive. Then I started thinking: Yeah I didn't have to locate the queen, but what if she had already swarmed and the new queen had not emerged? Or what if the new queen was out on a mating flight?
    There were Q-cells with larva, so I wasn't sure if I got the timing right.
    And what about stores? I've heard people say " It's just like a swarm, they bring their stores with them." I felt this was questionable. So I ended up giving them a couple frames of honey and pollen to ease my mind. As to whether I have a queen in the new hive only time will tell. If not I'll add a queen or Q-cell

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Check in a couple days for eggs.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    doug reed, when in doubt, don't be afraid to give them something to eat. Especially if the weather looks questionable over the next few days. Either in the form of syrup or stores in comb. You can't really do it wrong. When I shook mine out, I found a frame with eggs first and put it in the box for them so that if they needed to raise a queen I'd know. I wasn't sure if the queen had swarmed yet or not. Later in the process I watched her walk into the box, but it gives them an anchor and gives you a little peace of mind.

  11. #30
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    I have not tried it, but it would seem like a good method to get a lot of nurse bees for a "swarm box" for a cell starter.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  12. #31
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    Thumbs Up Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Several years ago when researching swarming and swarm prevention I came across reference to a Taranov swarm procedure. It is a way to separate a colonies bees by age and stage very much as the bees arrange themselves when they swarm off into the trees. The big difference is you can set the time and place and have them conveniently in your hands or have them walk into the new hive.

    I found it a good way to do a split and leave behind the foragers while pulling off the queen and nurse bees. I have a terrible time finding my dark queens and have wasted a lot of time searching when I want to replace a queen. Basically it amounts to making a ramp and throwing a towel or blanket over it and shaking all the bees out on the ramp. The ones that have flown and oriented immediately return to the original hive site (or the box you put in its place) and the other young bees and the queen, walk up the ramp and form a cluster under its lip. This can be picked up and dumped in a box of foundation or drawn comb. They dont fly so there is about zero chance of them not accepting the box you put them in.

    The original colony has all the foragers plus some newly promoted nurse and wax makers that will handily make a new queen while continuing honey production. While the frames are shaken off you can choose how much brood to leave them or queen cells if present. The artificial swarm you created has the bees of prime age to drawn new comb. Neither the original or the new swarm will have the right aged bees to swarm on you for the rest of the season. I found it awe inspiring to watch it take place.

    If you combine this with the Snelgrove division board you can place the swarm in a hive body on top of the original hive and worker bees as they mature can be diverted down to the original colony below to add to the work force there. That way you do not need a new top and bottom board. Just an option. It does take about half an hour for the swarm to completely form a tight cluster but you can be doing other things (if you can pull yourself away from watching)

    There are a few good videos and more suggestions if you google Taranov Swarm.

    >>Lovely idea for a must try in a few months time in Yorkshire,UK. Can you give a little more on the Snelgrove board ? Please? I have one, never used it, and understand the principal, BUT I was going to put the weaker hive at the bottom of the stack, and bleed the flying bees down the ways to add extra help. Am I OK on this or a little confused ? Advise Appreciated << George

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Quote Originally Posted by Gasmanone View Post
    >>Lovely idea for a must try in a few months time in Yorkshire,UK. Can you give a little more on the Snelgrove board ? Please? I have one, never used it, and understand the principal, BUT I was going to put the weaker hive at the bottom of the stack, and bleed the flying bees down the ways to add extra help. Am I OK on this or a little confused ? Advise Appreciated << George
    I am not sure what you mean by "weaker hive". After you separate with a taranov swarm the original location will be strong on forager bees and the others you collect on the ramp or in the remove box will be strong on nurse bees.

    To set up Snelgrove's classic swarm prevention you would have the queen in the bottom box with only a bit of open brood to anchor her. All other open and capped brood goes in top box above the division board. The majority of the nurse bees will follow the brood and as bees from the top box are bled down to forage from the lower box as soon as they orient. Another method puts the queen in the top box but the end game is pretty much the same; the queen is separated from either flying bees or separated from the majority of the brood. Either situations fullfilled seems to kill the swarm inclination.

    In the UK you should have no problem picking up a used copy of Snelgroves book, Swarming: Its control and prevention. Mine came from the UK via Abebooks.com which is an excellent source of used books on many topics.
    Frank

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    If aiming for a preemptive swarm control procedure e.g. Snelgrove B., what are the advantages of a Taranov split prior to a SB ?? Advise as I have come through my first winter with a late made up nucleus on a single deep and wish to increase my one colony for security and safety, comfort, reasons Thanks

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    WOW!! Mr Carlson I just watched this for the first time and you are the fastest moving beek I have ever seen and those are some runny bees! Regular track stars! THis is simply a better plan than the humongous ramp I made and tote around! As the snow swirls and piles up outside it is good to see beekeeping! Only two months til the taranov procedure might be helpful or necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    WOW!! Mr Carlson I just watched this for the first time and you are the fastest moving beek I have ever seen and those are some runny bees! Regular track stars! THis is simply a better plan than the humongous ramp I made and tote around! As the snow swirls and piles up outside it is good to see beekeeping! Only two months til the taranov procedure might be helpful or necessary.
    I get work done quickly, Vance.

  17. #36
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    May 2015
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    Hillsboro, OR, USA
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Dumb question. How does this splitting technique effect overall honey production? We have one good flow here, Blackberry. How much would this set it back, over all, 'swarmed hive' v 'old hive'?

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Instead of waiting the 16 days for a new queen + flight time + 21 days for brood (yes, I realize you leave brood in there from the old queen), could you perhaps use this with a bred queen and just introduce her after 24 hours (following favorite/successful methods of requeening) to the queenless split?

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    Quote Originally Posted by zonedar View Post
    Dumb question. How does this splitting technique effect overall honey production? We have one good flow here, Blackberry. How much would this set it back, over all, 'swarmed hive' v 'old hive'?
    Depends on the amount of bees, drawn comb available... It will set both back some, as you are dividing the work force into two groups. Their main concern will be to raise the brood they have (capped or newly lain), and rebuild the colony numbers (or raise a queen in the case of one half of the split). Providing drawn comb, a bred queen, and food (nectar flow, pollen, substitutes, etc.) all help for a faster rebound.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    What is the purpose of the white sheet? Why not just dump the bees directly onto the wood ramp?
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Creating a Preemptive Swarm; The Taranov Manouver

    My guess is you could get more production if you just made the hive queenless and gave it a cell. They won't swarm without a queen, and without no queen laying for a couple weeks to do you free up the nurse bees to forage. The original hive is going to have to have some percentage of foragers revert to nurse bees, so you have reduced your total workforce. The swarm with the queen is basically like the perfect package of bees. They are all young the hive should be able to stay strong will the queen lays up the new hive, but they are not going to be big producers, since they will still have a bunch of nurse bees doing nurse bee things.

    In the end though you get more production from a hive that doesn't swarm versus one that does. If you are doing this to prevent a swarm it is probably worth it.

    Plus it is cool to watch them. I need to film it the next time I do it.

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