How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    if you look for the symptoms, crawlers, or if you are feeding and they refuse to take the sugar water, or lots of bees dying in the feeders, or nucs or hives that just sit their and don't progress for no apparent reason are all good indications that you may have a nosema problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by winevines View Post
    This video (I think from 2015) presents some very interesting things going on with bees and commercial pollinators- things many of us would never has considered if we've never done it. It is from the perspective of a State Apiarist from a State that brings in commercial pollinators.
    If you are short on time, skip to about minute 50. And thanks to the folks in NJ who post lots of great videos.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0rC8KnwET8
    if you go to around the 35:00 min mark in the above youtube video, tony states that the best method to use is the drench method, this is what I have done to individual hives very successfully that have had problems. I even have had success with one hive that had bee paralysis, kept dosing it every 5 days and added in some Vitamin C with the fumidil, hive is still humming in it's third year with no symptoms showing back up.
    mike syracuse ny
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  3. #22

    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    if you are feeding and they refuse to take the sugar water, or nucs or hives that just sit their and don't progress for no apparent reason are all good indications that you may have a nosema problem.
    Also, in my experience, symptoms of a failing queen or queenless hive.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  4. #23
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    This will be my first year not using fumagillin , my in yard trials are showing a overall neg effect to spore count months after treatment. My nosema infection has been diagnosed as nearly 100% nosema C.

    Right now my hives look good... With zero mites and no detectable virus, but holding a background infection of 2.9m spore count!

  5. #24
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    I don't know mite counts. They dribble with OA at Solstice. I can't remember if they use formic in August, but I think so. I know they have vaporizers as well. They definitely treat. The interesting observation they shared at last month's meeting was that after QA dribble, the "weak" bees died, the survivors were reduced to a couple of frames, but seemed vibrant.
    We had an unusually mild winter (for WA) in 2014/15 and dry spring, with drought in summer. This seemed to lead to an increased varroa problem. Many of those who treated after pulling supers in August, felt we needed to treat again by October.
    Fidalgo Island
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  6. #25
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    I'm not feeling any less nervous about this.

    This is from wiki's Nosema ceranae blurb:

    News articles published in October 2010 quoted researchers who had discovered that Nosema fungus had joined with a previously unsuspected virus, Invertebrate Iridescent Virus, or IIV6, dealing test bee colonies a lethal blow. Neither the fungus nor the virus alone kill all the test group, but the two combined do. Both the fungus and the virus are found together with high frequency in hives that have suffered CCD. Final testing is in progress with field tests on colonies.[13]

    N. ceranae and N. apis have similar life cycles, but they differ in spore morphology. Spores of N. ceranae seem to be slightly smaller under the light microscope and the number of polar filament coils is between 20 and 23, rather than the more than 30 often seen in N. apis.

    The disease afflicts adult bees and depopulation occurs with consequent losses in honey production. One does not detect symptoms of diarrhea like in Nosema apis.

    The most significant difference between the two types is how quickly N. ceranae can cause a colony to die. Bees can die within 8 days after exposure to N. ceranae (Higes et al. 2006), a finding not yet confirmed by other researchers. The forager caste seems the most affected, leaving the colony presumably to forage, but never returning. This results in a reduced colony consisting mostly of nurse bees with their queen; a state very similar to that seen in CCD. There is little advice on treatment but it has been suggested that the most effective control of Nosema ceranae is the antibiotic fumagillin as recommended for Nosema apis.[14] The genome of Nosema ceranae was sequenced by scientists in 2009. This should help scientists trace its migration patterns, establish how it became dominant, and help measure the spread of infection by enabling diagnostic tests and treatments to be developed.[15][16]
    I believe that the nosema c. strain is relatively new, to the U.S., or at least identified in the 1990s here. C. is harder to treat than a. Interestingly, it looks like the c. strain originated in Asia (Asian bees).

    2009 article: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nose...athers-nosema/

    A 2015 article by the same author: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-...osema-ceranae/ he finds:
    My current take on nosema is that it is an opportunistic pathogen, always there at a low level, but only becoming a problem when colonies are already stressed by chilling, viruses, poor nutrition, and perhaps environmental toxins. The effect would likely be most pronounced in colonies of aged winter bees, especially during the spring turnover. The troika of chilling, paralytic viruses, and nosema appears to be especially deadly. So it may not be that N. ceranae initiates disease, but rather that it takes advantage of weakened bees and delivers the killing blow by causing rapid abandonment of the hive by the infected bees.
    Last edited by NewbeeInNH; 01-29-2016 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Too much time on my hands

  7. #26
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Not to mention that prophylactic treatment with fumagilin may be exacerbating issues with Nosema ceranae: http://journals.plos.org/plospathoge...l.ppat.1003185
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
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  8. #27

    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Quote Originally Posted by NewbeeInNH View Post
    I'm not feeling any less nervous about this.
    What would you propose one do?
    Everything I've read indicates that n ceranae (with a name like that...certainly from Asia) is now the predominant nosema in the north America. Without the obvious symptoms of dysentary...short of sending routine samples to Beltsville or buying a microscope...
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  9. #28
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Anyone hearing of any correlation between using OA dribble and reduced nosema problems?

    OA dribble is supposed to be hard on gut of the bee and one should only apply OA by dribble once. However, in being hard on the bee gut, does OA dribble also reduce Nosema???????

    I noted that Randy Oliver(in the video presentation about 3 weeks ago in a thread) eluding to possibly some correlation to reduced nosema with OA dribble.

    ??????
    Zone 3b. If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

  10. #29
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    What would you propose one do?
    Well, I'm thinking, since I haven't heard much about this anywhere, or at least not with fear and trepidation, that maybe increased awareness will lead to spotlighting the strain of fungus and its effects, which will lead to more researchers proposing remedies. That's my hope. If we only blame varroa and neglect this issue, we might face a setback in colony health.

    The other thought is we could form Nosema C. anxiety therapy groups and one would start in my area.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Quote Originally Posted by NewbeeInNH View Post
    I'm not feeling any less nervous about this.
    My recommendation to you, is go read Randy Oliver's web site about the information he has about his take on Nosema c. I also recommend you read it sequentially if you can figure out which trials he did in order. Having read his stuff and followed him on bee-l for a very long time. He initially thought NC was extremely bad, then decided it wasn't bad, then was sure it was bad, then decided it wasn't as bad as he thought, or something along those lines. I'm not sure which way he is leaning recently. I'm not knocking him at all, if he is having trouble deciding, the collective we are going to be in the dark. What I did get out of his conversations with other pretty savvy beeks was that NC seems to affect the colder climate beeks more than the warmer climate beeks. There is also some evidence that Formic, Oxalic, and the thymol products, and a good flow of really good pollen can all affect NC, so depending on where you are, what you use, what kind of bees you have all influence your outcome. did I mention throwing in a little luck on the side. Randy has also said that he didn't feel that fumidil helped, and then said he found some benefit. so you are not going to get an answer here or probably any where else that will make you happy.
    I have tried to follow the recommendations of the Ontario province web site as they more resemble our weather than the usda or Randy. good luck
    mike syracuse ny
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  12. #31

    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    If my memory serves me, when n ceranae was first reported in Europe...there were many failing hives attributed to it. Worldwide there were countless researchers giving it a hard look. At the end of the day, it hasn't turned out to be the disaster originally feared. Having said that...awareness isn't a bad thing.
    But my take....as you can probably imagine....is to keep your bees as healthy as possible...and that starts with...varroa management. And if you've done that successfully and made sure they had vigorous queens and plenty of stores and limited exposure to pesticides....and they still collapse....then panic may be appropriate.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  13. #32
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Thanks, wild. Randy's recommendations from his 2015 article were: keep the bees healthy nutritionally, avoid chilling as much as possible, isolate dwindling hives, keep young queens.

    Which sounds more and more like we northern beekeepers really need to move south. (Move over, beeman. We're about to infiltrate.)

  14. #33
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    By the way, this youtube is very informative, even tho it's by a first year beekeeper:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOaMkNRjxv4

    Some excellent slides of ceranae. Motivated me to try using the microscope here myself.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgolden View Post
    Anyone hearing of any correlation between using OA dribble and reduced nosema problems?

    OA dribble is supposed to be hard on gut of the bee and one should only apply OA by dribble once. However, in being hard on the bee gut, does OA dribble also reduce Nosema???????

    I noted that Randy Oliver(in the video presentation about 3 weeks ago in a thread) eluding to possibly some correlation to reduced nosema with OA dribble.

    ??????
    First I hear of it, but I dug up the article: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...34528815300333

    Thymol also has effects against nosema. Much more than even fumagilin, at least on N. apis, according to this article: http://www.hrbka.org.uk/assets/site/...sema-paper.pdf
    And also for N. ceranae specifically: http://link.springer.com/article/10....pido%2F2009070

    Fumagilin, on the other hand, slows then Nosema ceranae at first, and then accelerates it with decreasing concentrations (see previous post).
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
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  16. #35
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Has anyone here had luck with any of the "snake oils"? Nosevit or Complete? Dribble, not as feed stimulant/supplement ?
    Fidalgo Island
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  17. #36
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgolden View Post
    Anyone hearing of any correlation between using OA dribble and reduced nosema problems?

    OA dribble is supposed to be hard on gut of the bee and one should only apply OA by dribble once. However, in being hard on the bee gut, does OA dribble also reduce Nosema???????

    I noted that Randy Oliver(in the video presentation about 3 weeks ago in a thread) eluding to possibly some correlation to reduced nosema with OA dribble.

    ??????
    Because the OA dribble killed the weak bees?
    Fidalgo Island
    Sea level, Puget Sound, USDA 7a-7b

  18. #37
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    What would you propose one do?
    Nothing?

    When N. apis was the strain infecting our bees, they told us to treat when spore count rose to 1 million spores per bee. Over the years I saw colonies that I thought might have winter killed from the infection. Dysentery all over the hive, and a weak or dead colony in the spring. Didn't sample and didn't treat.

    I'm not sure when N. ceranae replaced N. apis, but in spring of 2012 I had a severe infection in a nuc apiary. The winter was similar to this year, 2015-2016. Warm. Most every colony survived the winter. The apiaries of nucleus colonies looked awesome...except one. Half the nucs were dead. The remaining half were weak with greasy looking bees that had the shakes. I tried to understand what was happening...what had I done differently with this group of nucs that caused their demise. They were made from the same brood source as the rest of the nucs I wintered that year. They had the same daughter queens as the others. I made them during the same time period as the other. I fed them the same at the same time. Very confusing.

    While we were looking at the mess, a neighbor drove into the apiary, and began shaking his finger at me...I had moved in on top of his 10 colonies, and because I had, his bees failed to build up and most had crashed the previous summer and the remaining live colonies died in the winter. The lightbulb went off. I took a sample and examined under my microscope. Nosema spores are supposed to be examined at 400x. I looked at the slide at 40x, and the spores lit up like a Christmas tree. 40X! He was blaming me for the demise of his package bees, when in reality, his bees caused the demise of mine. I never moved the nucs to the apiary until July, while he said his bees, installed in May, never built up. So my bees robbed out his sick colonies and brought the infection home. I drenched the remaining bees in the apiary with fumagilin and thick syrup and they recovered.

    But that's the only time I've ever used fumagilin. New York samples my bees every year, for the national survey. My spore counts are quite low, but occasionally an apiary has more than 1 million spores per bees. While that is supposed to be the treatment threshold, I haven't treated. In the spring, I can find no relation between spore count found and dead/weak colonies in the spring.

    For the last few years, the counts are very low or not detectable. The NY inspector and the Chief want to know why. They know I don't use fumagilin and wonder why my spore counts are so low, when other's have such high counts and are treating. Beats me.

    Last summer, Vermont joined the national survey. At our Vermont winter meeting this past Tuesday, I asked the person running the survey, how my bees looked. Two of my apiaries sampled were the lowest for both Nosema and Varroa among all apiaries sampled. The third apiary came in fourth. While I don't know the owners of the apiaries surveyed, I saw the numbers. Very high nosema, with some varroa counts that were scary.

    All this makes me wonder what's going on. The survey samples were all taken from apiaries of 10+ colonies...half migratory apiaries and half non-migratory. While I don't know why there is such a difference in both my New York and Vermont apiaries, when compared to other apiaries in the areas, I can guess. I think I'm the only one who raises all stock from strong colonies wintered in place. I also don't requeen every colony every year. If a colony is healthy and productive, and they know how to supercede successfully year after year without having a drop in productivity, I never requeen the colony. For instance...One of my 2015 breeders came from a colony that I first established in 2001 and have never done anything to that colony but treat for varroa after the honey was removed each August.

    So, could it be that the bees can develop a resistance to Nosema?

  19. #38
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Interesting Michael, thank you. Resistance would be optimum, I hope you're right.

    Your story about the nuc yard succumbing kind of reinforces what they say that chilled bees have a harder time resisting nosema. I wonder if the small nuc populations are more vulnerable. That would be my guess.

    I think the standard answer amongst beekeepers to winter die-outs is "varroa." But maybe not necessarily. It might be nosema c. A relatively new infestation here, my concern is that we're not giving it enough credit, but masking it over with: it must be varroa. I'd hate to see widespread fumagillin use that could start causing resistance issues, but I think it would be good to know which enemy we're dealing with.

    Maybe the bees will end up sorting it out on their own and the issue won't be that big of a deal. That would be good. But I'm going to start getting very friendly with the microscope, comparing bees from deadouts to those from surviving hives, looking for differences in nosema levels. If it turns out there is a relationship there, I'm going to think twice about sharing frames between hives.

    It also sounds like you are not importing any bees into your apiaries, while others with higher counts and issues may be. I wonder if, like you said, building your own colonies from your own strong stock, is key. Others may be bringing infected bees into their apiaries (packages, queens), and whammo. Nosema c. (Just guessing here of course)

  20. #39
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    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Maybe this is why my bees have low nosema counts, although I vaporize rather than drench or dribble:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...34528815300333

    Abstract

    Nosema ceranae is a honey bee pathogen parasitizing the ventricular epithelium and potentially causing colony death. The effect of 0.25 M oxalic acid solution administered to the bees in the form of sugar syrup was determined in laboratory and field trials. The spore numbers in an 8-day laboratory experiment were significantly lower when AO was administered (treated: 11.86 ± 0.94 s.e. × 10^6; untreated: 30.64 ± 0.31 s.e. x 10^6). When administered in autumn to free flying colonies twice, 3 weeks apart, the infection prevalence decreased in young (relative reduction of 53.8% ± 6.5 s.e.) and old bees (relative reduction of 44.4% ± 6.0 s.e.). Meanwhile increased prevalence in all the controls was detected (young and old bees: relative increase of 45.7% ± 22.8 s.e. and 10.2% ± 5.9 s.e., respectively). While all the treated colonies overwintered correctly, the untreated ones did not (3 out of 5 were dead).
    In the absence of commercial products approved in several countries to control nosemosis, oxalic acid syrup appears promising in the development of alternative management strategies.

  21. #40

    Default Re: How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?

    Quote Originally Posted by NewbeeInNH View Post
    A relatively new infestation here
    From what I've read, when reports from Europe started and folks here began looking more closely it was discovered that n cerane was in stored samples going back years. It is not overtly different under a microscope and had been presumed to be n apis throughout that time. All indications are...it isn't new here.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

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