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Thread: Poster Child

  1. #201
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Of course not. I just can't fathom why a migratory beekeeper who has lost thousands of colonies in the last few years, and is convinced that the losses were caused by neonic pesticide, would continue go to the same area with the same pollination contracts with the same bee management and continue to put his bees through the grinder. Does it make any sense to you?
    it does not

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  3. #202
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    My bees are surrounded by corn, all with Clothianadin. No CCD here. No huge losses here.
    this is very encouraging.

    any summer loses that you didn't have 10 years ago?

  4. #203
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    M. Palmer - No, I did not get a chance to view the video.

    It is all quite possible that Hackenberg did have a terrible mite problem as you mentioned. That does not distract from his irradiation experiment where he irradiated half of a group of hive, placed bees in the whole group, and noted that the irradiation cured many of his issues. I am acknowledging his contribution to resolving the CCD problem. This is NOT a comment on his ability to keep his bees mite free. They are two separate achievements. How he runs his bees has little effect on me, but the information that irradiation cured problems was very valuable to all of us.

    We need a similar simple "test" or "experiment" that will give us direction with the current situation. If there was a different antidote for each of the neonicitinods/pyrethroids/ets.... we could see which antidote cures them and then know the cause of our problems.

    Maybe a first step would be to suggest curtailment of tank mixes, on the grounds that the mix has not been tested. It would greatly reduce the variables in our search.

    Crazy Roland

  5. #204
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Okay, but with varroa, some old pathogens suddenly become deadly. And did you listen to Jadczak in the video that Winevines posted in this thread? On May 26, in Maine, 2006, Dave's bees rolled 90 mites from a sample of 150 bees. 90! In May! Walking dead.
    I just finished watching that... eye opening and pretty damning re: Hackenberg. My favorite quote was towards the end he said something like "We've always had CCD, we just used to call it PMS." The people moving all their bees while foraging is taking place is pretty impressive, too. I can't imagine the colony isn't extremely effected by that kind of mismanagement. He also talked about 30% losses being the norm historically. I was starting to get that impression while reading some of the oldish bee books, Honey Farming by R.O.B. Manley most recently... I believe he mentioned a loss rate somewhere in that neighborhood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    My bees are surrounded by corn, all with Clothianadin. No CCD here. No huge losses here.
    I am a tiny sample size, but I don't know of anyone around here in the corn capital of the world where nere a square inch goes unplowed who is attributing colony losses to neonics. Almost all of my bees are within a stones throw of tilled monocrop. Have heard some rumblings of planting dust issues, but even that seems isolated. We're not terribly dry come planting time as a rule, however.

  6. #205
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by B&E View Post
    this is very encouraging.

    any summer loses that you didn't have 10 years ago?
    No, I only see normal summer losses...queen loss and/or failure. The supposed 25% summer loss reported by commercial beekeepers? Can't imagine.

    But when I pollinated, I remember discussions among fellow pollinators that claimed a 10% loss of queens when colonies were moved. Maybe a bit high in my experience, but suppose one could expect a 5% loss from the move. And suppose a beekeeper wintering inn the south who moves colonies to almonds and back to winter locations. Then north to, say, apples or blueberries halfway up north. Then to the blueberry barrens of Maine. Then to another crop, and then to summering locations....before moving south to wintering locations. 5 moves at 5% loss 2 move equates to a 25% loss. Could happen I guess.

  7. #206

    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    And did you listen to Jadczak in the video that Winevines posted in this thread?
    Not yet...but am expecting a rainy day today. Now let's see.....video or taxes?
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  8. #207
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    This story about irradiating half his bees, will not radiation kill all the bugs including the bees. My understanding of things dying from radiation is due to the radiation killing all the bacteria in the body. Can anyone clarify this.
    Johno

  9. #208
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    For some years Roland had CCD like symptoms and I think (from memory) he actually called it CCD, then after the hive died the combs would spread it if used on a new hive. He found irradiating the combs solved it.

    Also I think it was Roland who reported that these combs would not even be touched by wax moths they avoided them. Might have to ask Roland to confirm on that though it may have been someone else..

  10. #209
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    This story about irradiating half his bees, will not radiation kill all the bugs including the bees. My understanding of things dying from radiation is due to the radiation killing all the bacteria in the body. Can anyone clarify this.
    Johno
    Yes, the equipment is irradiated, not the live colonies. I've never done it, but what I have heard a person has to put the supers of comb individually into cardboard boxes and stacked on a warehouse pallet so they can be handled by forklift.
    Mark Berninghausen

  11. #210
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Our summer losses typically run in the 10 to 15% range. We requeen annually, some of them I blame on the 1,000 mile migratory trip but mostly it seems like poor matings, queens that seem to lack vitality and just dwindle down. What we rarely see are full blown drone layers but instead dwindling lw hives.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #211
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    That does not distract from his irradiation experiment where he irradiated half of a group of hive, placed bees in the whole group, and noted that the irradiation cured many of his issues. I am acknowledging his contribution to resolving the CCD problem. This is NOT a comment on his ability to keep his bees mite free. They are two separate achievements. How he runs his bees has little effect on me, but the information that irradiation cured problems was very valuable to all of us.
    There is a beekeeper in Ontario that has been working with the OBA tech transfer team on treating deadouts/empty equipment with ozone. Here is an older article: http://www.producer.com/2014/12/ozon...es-pesticides/
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  13. #212
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post

    It is all quite possible that Hackenberg did have a terrible mite problem as you mentioned. That does not distract from his irradiation experiment where he irradiated half of a group of hive, placed bees in the whole group, and noted that the irradiation cured many of his issues.

    Crazy Roland
    seems to be much conflicting information about if the irradiation helped with Mr. Hackenberg's problems, after the irradiation didn't solve his problem, he got on the neonic as being the cause. from a post in 2008

    Now there certainly are problems with our bees. I am in contact almost daily
    with commercial beekeepers and I can honestly say that most of those having
    troubles this year had troubles last year. A few new beeks are reporting
    troubles but most have a good idea what caused their losses. Also if the
    problem in Dave Hackenbergs bees had been a new pathogen then radiation
    would have solved the problem and it did not. Davy hackenberg said they are
    down to around 900 hives with only a third strong enough to split. So all
    thats left in the Hackenberg issue is contaminated comb which could not be
    removed by radiation. Hackenberg suspects neonicotinoids.
    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...%3BMatches&z=4
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  14. #213
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by B&E View Post
    that's preposterous. live hives are worth WAY more than any payout.
    took me a while to find this old post, made by a large commercial beek. now how is running the hives into the ground any difference than depopulating manually with the exception that the govt. will pay you I think it was $90 dollars a hive to run them into the ground???

    As example Richard Adee used to only keep 25% of his hives (BC article from
    90's) and depopulate the rest as he needed the equipment to use again. Many
    of his hives were depopulated by Bell Honey in Florida and then the empty
    equipment sent to the operation in Mississippi( I was involved in this
    part). In those days after the honey flow in the Dakota's was over and *if*
    fifty percent were dead it was not cause for concern and only meant the
    deadouts were sent to Mississippi instead of Florida to be depopulated.
    Actually saved on trucking and cost in Florida of depopulation. The
    beekeeper in Florida at the time employed a much larger work force than the
    Adee operation ( has actually been larger at various times in beekeeping
    history) and was set up for depopulating the hives in a huge building
    setting. Said beekeeper is retired now ( rumors say silent partner in
    certain beekeeping operations ) and the plan does not really fit now since
    the Adee's are big into almond pollination and as I understand go now
    directly to California from the Dakota's in fall.

    The point I make is one my long time friend Jerry B. has trouble with. 50%
    losses seem ok with some beekeepers he seems not to understand. Unlike the
    hobby beekeeper (same actually give queens names) the commercial beekeeper
    decides on the number of hives he will run. As example say a 1000 hives and
    he requeens every year. So if he wants to requeen all he takes one strong
    hive and turn into four in spring he needs to depopulate 75% (750 hives
    using the above example) to have the equipment he needs in spring. He keeps
    the absolute best 250 and sends to the splitting area which in the case of
    the Adee's was Mississippi and for us is Texas. The commercial migratory
    beekeeper now has his 1000 hives back with new queens.

    A young queen pays instead of costs!
    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...%3BMatches&z=4

    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  15. #214
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    We do have an irradiation program available in our area. I don't think it's any kind of revelation that if you have comb with bacterial/viral/fungal issues contamination that using gamma irradiation will make the comb usable (even with visible afb scale and chalkbrood mummies).

    I don't think anyone would be surprised to find a colony that is collapsing for whatever reason to become compromised with a microbial disease (or viral) and to leave behind some source or reinfection on the comb....or to see this improved with irradiation.

    My impression (and I don't have a specific citation) is that beekeepers generally report great results from irradiated comb...and one might speculate that the older the comb, the more impact irradiation might have vs not irradiated.

    One would really have to compare the irradiated CCD comb to irradiated non-CCD comb in order to learn anything meaningful about CCD.

    adding in edit: There is one drawback of having an irradiation program available, which is that equipment gets stored to irradiate in the spring. I know that the idea of AHB equipment being trucked around in vehicles and stored freaks some people out...but the only issues I know about involved people getting a deal on known contaminated equipment, storing it to irradiate as needed, and a relative taking some equipment off the wrong pile. Coupled with all the other kinds of things that go on with people, this lead to real problems.
    Last edited by deknow; 01-27-2016 at 07:45 AM.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  16. #215
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Mike, thanks for digging that up. I really learned a lot from Bob Harrison...his posts are always worth reading.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  17. #216
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    An experiment presented in Apimondia 2012 (Québec city) showed that hives installed on irradiated comb actually had more viruses than those on comb that wasn't irradiated...

    Impact of viruses on honey bee comb on the phenology of virus dynamics and impact of viruses on honey bee colony performance
    Rob Currie, Ph.D., professor and Head, Department of Entomology, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
    Surprisingly, electron beam sterilization treatments did not suppress virus levels and in fact virus levels in irradiated treatments were higher than in non-irradiated treatments for both eggs and larvae.
    Different kind of irradiation, though, perhaps. The main point of that article was that virus loads were higher on dead-out comb than on honey super comb and that colonies with dead-out comb had lower honey yields.
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
    www.facebook.com/Apis.rustica

  18. #217
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    ...and looking at these levels in eggs and larva is quite different than looking at hive performance.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  19. #218
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    My club runs an annual gamma radiation run to address equipment that has been, or has the potential to be, impacted by diseases with great success. The gamma radiation kills everything.
    Dan Boylan, When in doubt "It's mites".

  20. #219
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...and looking at these levels in eggs and larva is quite different than looking at hive performance.
    Yes, but hive performance was also looked at, as I mentioned. If you want a direct quote:

    Virus levels were higher in colonies with deadout comb than in colonies with comb from honey supers indicating significant levels of viruses do survive on comb from deadouts and these combs can reinfect colonies of honey bees hived into that equipment. Virus inoculation resulting from comb from colonies that had died the previous winter resulted in significantly lower honey production than in colonies initiated from comb with little or no virus.
    Those are the two sentences that preceded the previous quote. As I had recapped in the previous post.

    Edit: that article was about electron beam irradiation, not gamma irradiation. We don't have gamma irradiation treatments available around here, so I don't know much about it. The points about dead-out combs affecting colony performance apply to both electron beam irradiated and plain non-irradiated comb however.
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
    www.facebook.com/Apis.rustica

  21. #220
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    An experiment presented in Apimondia 2012 (Québec city) showed that hives installed on irradiated comb actually had more viruses than those on comb that wasn't irradiated...

    Impact of viruses on honey bee comb on the phenology of virus dynamics and impact of viruses on honey bee colony performance
    Rob Currie, Ph.D., professor and Head, Department of Entomology, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


    Different kind of irradiation, though, perhaps. The main point of that article was that virus loads were higher on dead-out comb than on honey super comb and that colonies with dead-out comb had lower honey yields.
    I sat in on one of Rob's presentations speaking of this study, he was scratching his head and completely baffled
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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