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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Of course, but as this thread points out, there are many potential financial incentives at play here. Are you referring to corporate profits, government payments or private lawsuits. Last I checked there were no deep pockets on varroa destructor.
    I was eluding to the influence which chemical companies have over research done at Universities.
    Mark Berninghausen

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Without some idea or plan of what will replace the neonics, and some idea of the impact on the bees vs the impact that is being attributed to the neonics, I don't see how this helps anything. Is the pesticide to replace neonics not going to come from bug ag? Will it be local, artisanal pesticides?
    While sitting next to an AgChem Rep at a meeting of the NYS Pollinator Protection Task Force I asked him what Systemics (That's what neonics are, a systemic pesticide.) replaced and why. He said that they replaced Organophosphates and Pyrethroids because those materials harm mammals. So, get rid of the Systemic pesticides and what's the choice? Go back to the previous chemicals?

    I wonder what the folks at Dow and Monsanto are working on.
    Mark Berninghausen

  4. #103
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    I wonder what the folks at Dow and Monsanto are working on.
    ...that's an easy one. They are looking to keep selling the products they have on the market as long as possible....until resistance is a problem (before the patents run out...a generic pesticide isn't worth much if the pests are already resistant). ....then they introduce the next generation.

    It is notable (very notable) that despite monsantos reputation for aggressively enforcing many aspects of the planting of their products, there is no case that I'm aware of that they tried to enforce the planting guidelines that would help forestall resistance.
    http://michaelpollan.com/articles-ar...in-the-garden/
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  5. #104
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    >He said that they replaced Organophosphates and Pyrethroids because those materials harm mammals.

    Sprays that go on the outside of the plant and can harm mammals and were replaced by neonics which permeate the entire plant (including the parts we mammals eat) and can ALSO harm mammals...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  6. #105
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ....then they introduce the next generation.
    Which they must be working on now, right? That's what I was wondering about. What is the next generation ag chem?
    Mark Berninghausen

  7. #106
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Dean is on the mark here. I suppose my point of view is skewed a bit because my views have been forever marked by experiences back in the "good ole days" in my early years of beekeeping and having seen whole apiaries virtually wiped out by massive foliar spraying. I've seen the piles of dead bees and smelled the stink of rotting brood, I've even seen dead birds nearby and heard reports of small animals killed.
    Now we are quibbling about whether there is low dose exposure and whether that could possibly kill a hive. To me it's a bit like comparing the high highway death rates of the 60's era muscle cars to today's fatalities from accidental airbag deployments. Sure, nobody wants to kill bees but just remember, farmers will always do what is necessary to prevent insect damage to their crops and killing the "bad" insects without damaging the desirable ones is pretty tricky business. People need to be careful what they wish for or they might just get it, Mr. Palmers story about the loss related to him after the neonic ban in Europe wasn't just made up. It's easy to be against something but real solutions can be complicated.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #107
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    From a outsider ( 100+ non migrating hives in forest/cattle/agricultural are with "only" varroa to fight, in Sweden Scandinavia, Europe)
    In a scenario when 40000+ beehives dies leading to 400 000-800 000 frames ..maybe with a lethal dose of some chemical ( 2 " beefriendly substances can interact and become lethal)..Brought in with the bees or applied in apparently wrong dose by the beekepeer)
    Where does that wax go?
    Saving money and keeping viseble good frames and shake bees in eventually more contaminated wax then maybe get from bought could give you bad delayed outcome ( dead bees again) since starting levels are higer than "fresh" wax..
    The chemistry between the X-cides and some anti-varroasubstances can get us all crazy in the end. I think that is the problem that gives us so diffrent outcome in diffrent areas of the world. Neonics and some brand of fungiceds can be a killer ( in short or long term) but neonics and other fungicide just make us lose a generation of foragers.. and of course, if you sell some shakes from the hives for extra money ( i sell some packages during summer myself) and deplete them even more..

  9. #108

    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    . there is no case that I'm aware of that they tried to enforce the planting guidelines that would help forestall resistance.
    Pretty hard to enforce guidelines.
    Make no mistake...I'm not a fan of monsanto...but I know the difference between guidelines and contractual agreements.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  10. #109
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    My original question was if anyone knew of large scale losses in Australia.
    Without the issue of varroa...I think that an objective look at neonic losses might be simpler there.
    Again....I don't have an opinion.
    Sorry, didn't realize that it was a question about Australia specifically. Does Australia have a good system for reporting pesticide kills? In Ontario, if a beekeeper has a pesticide kill, he reports it to the PMRA (EPA equivalent), they will come out with a provincial bee inspector. The inspector will evaluate the colony(s) for disease help the PMRA collect data for the incident report. This is at no charge to the beekeeper. I don't think this is the case in the US? Certainly not in every state. Without a good system of reporting, how does anyone even know how widespread the problem is?
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  11. #110
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Pretty hard to enforce guidelines.
    Make no mistake...I'm not a fan of monsanto...but I know the difference between guidelines and contractual agreements.
    These are more than guidelines....they are required by law.

    I don't know much about corn farming, but I've never heard anyone talk about planting a refuge, and I've never heard anyone talk about non treated corn being in a mix with coated seed.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  12. #111
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Without some idea or plan of what will replace the neonics, and some idea of the impact on the bees vs the impact that is being attributed to the neonics, I don't see how this helps anything. Is the pesticide to replace neonics not going to come from bug ag? Will it be local, artisanal pesticides?
    What about IPM? Everything isn't always black and white. There has to be some middle ground between a total ban and 100% prophylactic use. Just like with our own acaricides, constant prophylactic use, leads to faster pest resistance. Targeted use should extend the effective life of neonics.

    The Ontario program that begins a staged introduction this planting season is essentially regulated/enforced IPM.

    Quebec offered(offers) subsidies for practicing IPM, but participation rates were low and availability of untreated seed was poor.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  13. #112
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Without some idea or plan of what will replace the neonics, and some idea of the impact on the bees vs the impact that is being attributed to the neonics, I don't see how this helps anything. Is the pesticide to replace neonics not going to come from bug ag? Will it be local, artisanal pesticides?
    EXACTLY ! This is simply not a product issue, as David pointed out, 20-30% loss in the Ag Valley. Why those losses?? Neonic? Broadcast poison? Mono culture + no forage >> mal nutrition? We all know the problems our current ag system prespires, it's been 80 years in the making.

    10 years from now, with Neinics pulled, we are going to be having the same conversation with the same alarm bells being rung and the same poster children, just attacking a different headline problem.


    MY solution ?!?

    How about we re direct all this energy and attention back down to solving solutions that are achievable and will show actual short term response.
    Needless ditch spraying is the obvious compromise to farmers... The countryside is being completely taken away from nature, we are not going to stop that. But we can lay claim on our government ditches... It would be a small victory but it yields great dividends. I have antidotal proof of it within my apiary.

    HAve BIG AG flip the bill for a ditch wild flower establishment program. Modify ditch mowers to preserve the flowers. Our bees thrive, bumble bees thrive, native bees thrive.

    OR we can follow the Hack on his forever campaign to dismantle BiG AG as we know it. Let's leave that job for the activists...

  14. #113
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    MY solution ?!?
    Don't go to the valley.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  15. #114
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Don't go to the valley.
    Keith can say more in 5 words.......
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  16. #115
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Don't go to the valley.
    Yup that's one solution

    But I make 100% of my income off Big AG, with crops, livestock and from what my bees forage on.

  17. #116
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Keith can say more in 5 words.......
    It applies to only a group of Beekeepers.

  18. #117
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    From:
    http://www.pollinator.org/PDFs/OPERAReport.pdf

    So far, none of the pesticide-related
    bee monitoring approaches found a
    clear connection between bee colony
    mortality as a general phenomenon
    and the exposure of bees to pesticides.

    France
    One of the most extensive monitoring approaches is
    being conducted in France to survey the bee safety of the
    thiamethoxam seed treatment in maize. The implemented
    survey is aimed at evaluating the potential side-effects of the
    use of coated seeds on pollinating insects, and more particularly
    on the honey bee.
    This survey was implemented over 3 years, covered 3 to 6 regions and involved several monitoring sites
    for each region. Sites had intensive maize cultivation grown from either treated or non-treated maize
    seeds. Apiaries were settled before sowing and remained until overwintering. Final data indicated a very
    low exposure of bees to residues of thiamethoxam over the entire growth period, and highlighted no
    product-related effect on colonies, even after several years of cohabitation
    2001 is the turning point where better honey prices for European producers and the support program financed
    by the European Commission began to strongly influence the stocks. Prior to 2007 there was a strong increase
    in the total number of beehives. Since 2007, the lower price of honey has a negative influence on the profitability
    of beekeeping, generating a strong decrease in the number of beehives almost to the level of 2001.
    The data suggest that there is a strong correlation between the number of beehives and the prices
    of honey and other apicultural products.
    To date, the outcome of the reported multifactorial monitoring projects seems to suggest that the
    parasitic mite V. destructor is the main causative factor involved in honey bee colony mortality in Europe;
    about this conclusion there seems to be consensus in the vast majority of the scientific community

  19. #118
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >He said that they replaced Organophosphates and Pyrethroids because those materials harm mammals.

    Sprays that go on the outside of the plant and can harm mammals and were replaced by neonics which permeate the entire plant (including the parts we mammals eat) and can ALSO harm mammals...
    This illustrates a total lack of even rudimentary understanding of the pesticide registration process as well as the whole field of toxicology. Yes, in large amounts all chemicals can kill you. That includes water and oxygen. Just drink a gallon and a half of water in an hour and a half and see how dead you are after a very short period of feeling really rotten. Several people per year die in the US from drinking too much water. More are hospitalized and barely survive. Just because an overdose will kill you does not mean a smaller dose will harm you in any way. In fact that smaller dose can even be essential to survival. The whole registration process for pesticides is aimed at establishing safe doses for the environment, for the pesticide applicator and for the consumer. The people that do such evaluations are a lot smarter at what they are doing then a bunch of monday morning quarter backs that do not even bother to try and understand the registration process.

  20. #119
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Without some idea or plan of what will replace the neonics, and some idea of the impact on the bees vs the impact that is being attributed to the neonics, I don't see how this helps anything. Is the pesticide to replace neonics not going to come from bug ag? Will it be local, artisanal pesticides?
    Artisanal pesticides? With the amount of time and money required to follow current respective govt. regulations the only way "Big Ag" can make a buck is to sell it in huge markets. Artisanal markets are too small and offer no RIO (return on investment). Keep in mind also "Big Ag" comes up with hundreds of products annually that fail long before they ever get to market. That's lost money, down the drain it goes. They've got to have enough winners to keep their doors open and when they do have one they defend it aggressively (I would too).

    If "Big Ag" is ever dismantled the way some people want to, then you'll see all types of untested homebrews showing up. Then there'll be something to complain about.


    As for the article? "Neonics are up to 10,000 times more dangerous that DDT. Enough said."

    Where's the evidence for this claim? I'm trying to read this with an open mind but when I see unsubstantiated ludicrous claims my BS radar begins to howl. The "Enough said" appears to have been added by the reporter too. A reporter is supposed to report the facts. "Neonics are up to 10,000 time more dangerous than DDT" is not a proven fact, it's speculation. "Enough said."? Well, that's what someone who's low on defendable information says when they no longer want to hear anything that doesn't support their position.

    To me, this is a well written piece of propaganda masquerading as a news article. My ill informed mother-in-law will swallow this hook line and sinker. I'll undoubtedly get this "news article" from her and I'll spend 1/2 an hour at our next meeting explaining how this wasn't news and why. Hackenberg is the pawn being used in an attempt to give credibility to this "News."
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  21. #120
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    Default Re: Poster Child

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    EXACTLY ! This is simply not a product issue, as David pointed out, 20-30% loss in the Ag Valley. Why those losses?? Neonic? Broadcast poison? Mono culture + no forage >> mal nutrition? We all know the problems our current ag system prespires, it's been 80 years in the making.

    10 years from now, with Neinics pulled, we are going to be having the same conversation with the same alarm bells being rung and the same poster children, just attacking a different headline problem.


    MY solution ?!?

    How about we re direct all this energy and attention back down to solving solutions that are achievable and will show actual short term response.
    Needless ditch spraying is the obvious compromise to farmers... The countryside is being completely taken away from nature, we are not going to stop that. But we can lay claim on our government ditches... It would be a small victory but it yields great dividends. I have antidotal proof of it within my apiary.

    HAve BIG AG flip the bill for a ditch wild flower establishment program. Modify ditch mowers to preserve the flowers. Our bees thrive, bumble bees thrive, native bees thrive.

    OR we can follow the Hack on his forever campaign to dismantle BiG AG as we know it. Let's leave that job for the activists...
    Ditch flowers aren't really the amazing solution they are put off to be. When treated seeds are put in the ground, most of the pesticide is washed off, and heads to the ditches where the wildflower perennials can more readily absorb it than the crop seedlings could.
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
    www.facebook.com/Apis.rustica

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