Selling Bees for Sting Therapy - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by ruthiesbees View Post
    but these people are barely able to get out of bed in the morning and fix themselves something to eat, let alone look after a bee hive.
    Thank you for the information.
    I apologize for suggesting "(everyone)" should become their own bee keeper.
    I agree with those suggesting to sell without reference to the intended use, or listing as "educational" materials, with a signed "( I am of age, & accept all responsibility)" document.

    legal liabilities .... This is the hard part. After the beloved one is gone, those who remain look around to sue every one in sight.
    just the world we live in today.

    Again, thanks for the links CE
    Started summer of 2013, just another new guy, tinkering with bees.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bee Bliss View Post
    Couple of things.........

    Ruthie, could you share some links? Very interesting as to the groups regarding lyme, apitherapy, etc.

    Also, something I read mentioned the one reason Lyme is difficult to treat is it likes to hide in joints and the brain. Medication needs to be able to cross the blood/brain barrier. Bee venom will cross over. Stings directly to joints will take care of areas without blood flow.
    I too would like to see some links . I was diagnosed with Lyme some years ago , it was caught it in an early stage and I got antibiotics . Until recently I thought nothing of it but now I'm seeing evidence that it doesn't always just go away even when caught and treated early ... and I'd like to know more .

    Oops , shoulda read ahead . Got any links that aren't FB ?
    Retired wannabee Hillbilly Farmer in backwoods Arkansas
    Our biggest crop is rocks ...

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry C View Post
    I too would like to see some links . I was diagnosed with Lyme some years ago , it was caught it in an early stage and I got antibiotics . Until recently I thought nothing of it but now I'm seeing evidence that it doesn't always just go away even when caught and treated early ... and I'd like to know more .

    Oops , shoulda read ahead . Got any links that aren't FB ?
    See post #19. The last link honeybeehealers probably is what you are looking for. It has lots of resource info. Or you can just google BVT and lyme to get a whole list of stuff to click on.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Thanks everyone for the information. I'll have to do more research on the whole thing. A brief discussion with the attorney this morning raises lots of issues (they of course see it as a liability problem because by providing the bees we would be facilitating the process). Something else that came to mind as I thought about this today is the issue of shipping bees across state lines....I'm not clear on how the few companies that are providing apitherapy bees are in compliance with the regulations regarding import of bees. For example, in Wisconsin our state governing this says "No person may bring or cause to be brought into this state any honeybee, beehive, drawn comb or used beekeeping equipment or appliances without reporting the shipment to the department. Reports shall be made on forms furnished by the department which shall include the name and address of the consignor, name and address of the consignee, date and manner of shipment.....". I know many other states have similar stuff on the books...as always enforcement of this is a whole different issue but if gov't gets you on one thing then they pile on with everything else they can find.
    www.capitalbeesupply.com
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  6. #25
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Its a funny thing...all the time I've spent browsing on BeeSource and I never noticed there was an Apitherapy forum......
    www.capitalbeesupply.com
    Manufacturers and Purveyors of Fine Beekeeping Equipment

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    With regard to liability, if someone decides a peanut has some medicinal value and later finds themselves extremely allergic, I don't think that the peanut farmer is at much of a risk so long as he hasn't advertised them as "miracle peanuts" or claimed they cure anything.

    If you are not promoting it as healthy or medicinal, you'd have no liability in the case of some injury. No more than Toll House has been for making me fat. Lol
    Hindsight is 20/10, not 20/20...
    After the fact, I always know what didn't work.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Everyone in here who is skeptical of bee venom therapy needs to read, Health and the Honeybee by Charles Mraz. This is a very inexpensive, well written, and interesting book that can be read in 2-3 hours.

    I'm amazed that someone would try to convince a person that a treatment isn't working when the person they are trying to convince has already been successfully using that treatment method. This book was written by a well respected person of good character and should be taken seriously. He was a person who made his living as a commercial beekeeper and decided to try the treatment one day for his own illness. It worked and he spent the next 70 years unselfishly helping/treating other people with illnesses that benefited from bee venom therapy who couldn't get any successful treatment anywhere else, including from professional doctors. In the book he also describes the science of it.

    As for selling someone bees ................. if they want to buy them, then sell them to them regardless of how they want to use them. Why not?

    "The only source of knowledge is experience.".........Albert Einstein

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardsonTX View Post
    Everyone in here who is skeptical of bee venom therapy needs to read, Health and the Honeybee by Charles Mraz. This is a very inexpensive, well written, and interesting book that can be read in 2-3 hours.

    I'm amazed that someone would try to convince a person that a treatment isn't working when the person they are trying to convince has already been successfully using that treatment method.
    In all fairness, you've heard of the placebo effect and confirmation bias, yes? Just because one believes a treatment is working does not mean it really is. Homeopathy is a good example of something that many people believe but does not stand up to scrutiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardsonTX View Post
    This book was written by a well respected person of good character and should be taken seriously.
    His character has no bearing on the validity of apitherapy, unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardsonTX View Post
    ...In the book he also describes the science of it.
    I'm curious; what illnesses does he claim apitherapy works for? How did he test his ideas? Did he do double-blind tests? Have his results been tested and duplicated?

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
    In all fairness, you've heard of the placebo effect and confirmation bias, yes? Just because one believes a treatment is working does not mean it really is. Homeopathy is a good example of something that many people believe but does not stand up to scrutiny.


    His character has no bearing on the validity of apitherapy, unfortunately.


    I'm curious; what illnesses does he claim apitherapy works for? How did he test his ideas? Did he do double-blind tests? Have his results been tested and duplicated?
    Like I said, read the book.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    [QUOTE=Galaxie;1364813]..... Just because one believes a treatment is working does not mean it really is.

    ~~
    I think the patient would be a good judge of that! Many have said it works.

    Read up on Pat Wagner, the Bee Lady, with MS.

    http://www.mdbee.com/apitherapy/patwagner.html (one source of many)


    She was confined to a wheelchair with MS until undertaking apitherapy. She eventually started giving apitherapy to others. I have her book. I have the Charles Mraz book also (Health and the Honey Bee).
    Mr. Mraz treated Wagner. She credits him with restoring her life.

    Charles Mraz worked with researchers and a few doctors during his apitherapy years. He was a beekeeper for a European doctor in New York practicing apitherapy. Dr. had an observation hive in his office to supply his bees.

    There are many ailments that apitherapy treats. Bee venom kills cancer cells also.
    Is it summer yet?

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
    ..... Just because one believes a treatment is working does not mean it really is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee Bliss View Post
    I think the patient would be a good judge of that! Many have said it works.
    Actually no, if one is trying to determine the efficacy of a new treatment, the patient(s) are not a good judge, precisely because of the placebo effect and confirmation bias. Patients may report beneficial effects, but unless a controlled study is done, we don't know if it was the treatment that was responsible for the beneficial effects or if it was merely a psychological effect (placebo). Additionally, with some illnesses we don't know if the beneficial effects are real or imaginary unless we test the patients afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bee Bliss View Post
    Read up on Pat Wagner, the Bee Lady, with MS.
    http://www.mdbee.com/apitherapy/patwagner.html (one source of many)
    She was confined to a wheelchair with MS until undertaking apitherapy. She eventually started giving apitherapy to others. I have her book. I have the Charles Mraz book also (Health and the Honey Bee).
    Mr. Mraz treated Wagner. She credits him with restoring her life.
    Charles Mraz worked with researchers and a few doctors during his apitherapy years. He was a beekeeper for a European doctor in New York practicing apitherapy. Dr. had an observation hive in his office to supply his bees.
    There are many ailments that apitherapy treats.
    I really hope apitherapy turns out to be a viable treatment for MS, but all I can see in that link are anecdotes. As the saying goes: anecdotes are not evidence. When it comes to medical treatments, we need controlled studies and so far the limited studies that have been done regarding MS do not look good for apitherapy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bee Bliss View Post
    Bee venom kills cancer cells also.
    Sorry, but the American Cancer Society says there are, "no clinical studies in humans showing that bee venom or other honeybee products are effective in preventing or treating cancer." Maybe there will be studies in the future, but until then we can't honestly say venom kills cancer. Please note that I am not trying to attack apitherapy or its proponents, I'm simply interested in the truth behind the claims.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    In the book and in videos, etc. Charles Mraz states that there is no money in apitherapy for big drug companies and, therefore, very little interest by their researchers. He tried repeatedly to get research done due to his interest in bee venom and because he saw results that supported the use of bee venom. Mraz indicated in his book that apitherapy is widely used in Europe.

    It appears big drug companies and their researchers are not interested in the truth unless it is profitable for them.
    Is it summer yet?

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bee Bliss View Post
    In the book and in videos, etc. Charles Mraz states that there is no money in apitherapy for big drug companies and, therefore, very little interest by their researchers. He tried repeatedly to get research done due to his interest in bee venom and because he saw results that supported the use of bee venom. Mraz indicated in his book that apitherapy is widely used in Europe.

    It appears big drug companies and their researchers are not interested in the truth unless it is profitable for them.
    Exactly! They can't patent free roaming bees and bee venom, so they have no interest in proving whether it works or not.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bee Bliss View Post
    In the book and in videos, etc. Charles Mraz states that there is no money in apitherapy for big drug companies and, therefore, very little interest by their researchers. He tried repeatedly to get research done due to his interest in bee venom and because he saw results that supported the use of bee venom. Mraz indicated in his book that apitherapy is widely used in Europe.

    It appears big drug companies and their researchers are not interested in the truth unless it is profitable for them.
    If he said that, it's a red flag because that is the same tired excuse that gets trotted out whenever a treatment's claims can't be proven. Do you really think doctors and researchers would ignore a potential treatment for something as serious as MS or cancer if there was any inkling it worked? Personally, I think the drug-companies would absolutely love to sell expensive synthetic bee venom.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by ruthiesbees View Post
    Exactly! They can't patent free roaming bees and bee venom, so they have no interest in proving whether it works or not.
    But they could patent synthetic bee venom or compounds derived therefrom. If apitherapy works and catches on, they're not going to use real bees if they can get away with it. There's a slight risk of infection plus the risk of allergic reaction with real bees. Also, live bees require care and all that while a vial of venom does not.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
    But they could patent synthetic bee venom or compounds derived therefrom. If apitherapy works and catches on, they're not going to use real bees if they can get away with it. There's a slight risk of infection plus the risk of allergic reaction with real bees. Also, live bees require care and all that while a vial of venom does not.
    So far, bee venom has not been synthesized in a laboratory. It contains a myriad of components and I wonder if we still haven't figured out what all of them are. The bottled stuff they use is dried real bee venom that has the "itchy" taken out. Some people report that doesn't work as well as the "real deal". The Bible of Bee Venom Therapy is an interesting read. It goes into a lot of the science behind it. http://www.amazon.com/The-Bible-Bee-.../dp/1890708003

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bee Bliss View Post
    In the book and in videos, etc. Charles Mraz states that there is no money in apitherapy for big drug companies and, therefore, very little interest by their researchers. He tried repeatedly to get research done due to his interest in bee venom and because he saw results that supported the use of bee venom. Mraz indicated in his book that apitherapy is widely used in Europe.

    It appears big drug companies and their researchers are not interested in the truth unless it is profitable for them.
    Well said!

    I had wanted to point that out earlier but didn't know how to say it quiet so clearly.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    Galaxie....................I'm not being facetious when i say this but you really should read the book. You will really enjoy the book, its interesting, and it may cause you to want to do more research on the matter to the point that you become another Charles Mraz. At the beginning of the book he tells about how he was just like you but after seeing real benefits from it when he himself got to a desperate point and decided to try it on himself, then he wanted to use it to help other people.

    http://www.amazon.com/Health-Honeybe.../dp/0964248506

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Selling Bees for Sting Therapy

    RichardsonTX,
    I have no doubt his book would be an interesting read. I think where we differ is whether his claims actually constitute evidence. I would say they do not. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic.

    If anyone is curious, here's a couple studies on apitherapy for pain management:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20558236
    http://www.jpain.org/article/S1526-5...869-8/abstract

    And with regards to MS:
    http://www.neurology.org/content/65/11/1764.short
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16541972
    Don't read those two unless you want to be disappointed.

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