jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I received 50 pounds of 10 5/8 wax foundation from the Virginia Dadant branch. This will be somewhere between 400 and 450 sheets which is enough to get me started with converting to square deep hives. I will work over the next month to make 1.25 inch wide frames with 11.25 inch depth.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

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  3. #42
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    Yuba County, California, USA
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Very interesting Darrel. I suspect you will notice a great change in the management of your hives, and in your winter survival rate, and possibly in your honey harvest, and am looking forward to hearing of the changes and results of this project you are embarking upon.
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  4. #43
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I started work on the frames for 11 5/8 inch deep hive bodies by cutting a few blanks for end bars. Now I'm busy figuring out the way to cut them most efficiently. I'm leaning toward making them 7/16 inch thick to increase strength for horizontal wires. I need a minimum of 420 frames therefore 840 end bars. Using a fine cut blade, I can get 6 wide out of each 2X4 or 9 wide out of each 2X6. This will take about 160 feet of 2X4 or 110 feet of 2X6 stock to cut the number of end bars I need. I'm debating purchasing studs since they are unlikely to warp.

    I'll make the top bars and divided bottom bars by the same pattern I've used for years. Topbars are 7/8 inch wide by 3/4 inch thick and 19 inches long. Figuring 12 inch wide stock, I'll need about 200 linear feet after allowing for knots to be cut out.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  5. #44
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I would go have a look at some larger dimension stock. Stud grade is usually cut from fairly small stems and you get a lot of grain direction change. Larger like 8, 10, or twelve by will usually allow you to pick clearer and straight grained wood. I made some from 2x4s because they were free but would consider wider if I was going to make a production run.
    Does your design use the reduced width of the lower part of the side piece similar to most of the production Hoffman frames we buy?
    Frank

  6. #45
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I've always made Hoffman style end bars with 2/3 of the length cut down to allow a bee space. I am debating cutting them straight and using staples or eyelets as spacers similar to the way Brother Adam made them. The big advantage of Hoffman type end bars is that they can be transported with minimum problems. The advantage of straight end bars with eyelets is that there is less propolis to deal with.

    Your point about using wider stock is well made. I worked out using 2X8 and 2X10 stock and get the best efficiency with 2X8. I'll probably purchase based mostly on price for the material that gives the required strength and milling characteristics needed. I have purchased 2X6 studs in the past that would be excellent for this purpose. It all depends on the kind of wood used and the method of milling.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  7. #46
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    Lamar Co. Alabama, USA
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I've been reading this thread with great interest and will continue to follow it. The book "Keeping Bees With a Smile" gives quite a bit of info on the use of deeper frames, only used in a horizontal hive. The author had almost zero losses during winter and few swarm issues, unless he intentionally made the hive swarm in the Spring.
    "Sometimes the best action, with bees, is no action at all."

  8. #47
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    red sd. bars.JPG
    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I've always made Hoffman style end bars with 2/3 of the length cut down to allow a bee space. I am debating cutting them straight and using staples or eyelets as spacers similar to the way Brother Adam made them. The big advantage of Hoffman type end bars is that they can be transported with minimum problems. The advantage of straight end bars with eyelets is that there is less propolis to deal with.

    Your point about using wider stock is well made. I worked out using 2X8 and 2X10 stock and get the best efficiency with 2X8. I'll probably purchase based mostly on price for the material that gives the required strength and milling characteristics needed. I have purchased 2X6 studs in the past that would be excellent for this purpose. It all depends on the kind of wood used and the method of milling.
    I asked because I ripped mine before doing the reducing cut on the jointer; It would have been much better and safer to do this first but my jointer is only 6 in wide so wider stock would have to be ripped first. It sure is a quick way to make this move.
    Frank

  9. #48
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I priced out lumber at 4 local suppliers with interesting results. One place is about 20% cheaper than the others for comparable wood. I'll visit the cheapest supplier and see if the wood is acceptable for my purposes. If not, the next best is only 3 miles further. One or the other will have what I need. The supplier that is only 1/4 mile from my home is the highest priced of the four. Since I am going to purchase about $300 of lumber, I will put the time in to ensure I get a good price even if I have to drive 30 miles to get it. Saving $50 will pay for the gas to make the trip.

    2 X 6 by 8 ft is available in spruce which is decent for frames with cheapest price $4.50 and highest at $5.19. The only thing I don't like about spruce is that it often has lots of small knots which would prevent cutting good end bars.

    2 X 8 by 8 ft is available in yellow pine which is too brittle to make good frames and price range from $5.38 to $6.35

    #2 shelving board 1 X 12 by the board ft runs from $1 to $1.25

    There is one outlier, a local supplier that sells only yellow pine. Prices are $3.50, $4.80, and $.67 respectively for the 3 sizes. Yellow pine is too brittle for making frames.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  10. #49
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    Monroe County, PA, USA
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Did you ask for the price by the foot or did you give them a list and ask for bids???
    Last edited by Barry; 01-31-2016 at 08:44 AM. Reason: quoting

  11. #50
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I gave them 40 - 2X6, 40 - 2X8, and 25 - 1X12 and asked for an itemized quote. I converted to wood type and price per to post here. While I could get a better price if purchasing in larger volume, the above is what I need without spending for a bunch of wood I can't use. If I wanted to drive 120 miles round trip, I could save another $20. That would IMO be a waste of time and gas.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  12. #51
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Fusion
    The cheapest is going to be in 16 ft lengths. It gives you the least amount of waste for the lengths you need for the top and bottom bars and the side bars. You will get 187 side bars out of a 2x6x16, but you will only get 88 out of a 2x6x8...

    When I did it a few years ago it cost about 45 cents per frame.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I bought wood today, 1 X 12 X 12' times 16 and 2 X 6 X 8 times 30. Total cost was $324.86 including tax. This was the best price I found from a local source. The 1 X 12 X 12' in white pine was $11.99 per 12 ft board and spruce 2 X 6 X 8 were $3.54 each. I'll cut top bars from the 1 X 12's and end bars plus bottom bars from the 2 X 6's.

    I have a lot of work to do over the next few weeks to manufacture 1000 Dadant 11 1/4 frames. I will have 30 hive bodies with 14 frames per for a total of 840 frames plus at least 100 extras to sell.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  14. #53

    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I have made some modified Dadant hives, they are just a little different from Jumbos. I have purchased the quimby modified dadant depth frames from Rossman several years ago...BUT I do not think they are the same spacing between the frames as the Modified Dadant was. The ones from Rossman would be the spacing between frames that the Jumbo uses and the same as a regular langstroth uses. Another book to read on the big deep hives is a book by Frank Pellet called "A Living From Bees" ...Frank became a convert of the bigger brood nest. And he tells you why in that book. Here is a link to buy a reprint... http://www.amazon.com/Living-From-Be.../dp/144652339X
    Also the Dadant book "The Dadant System of Beekeeping" (you can buy a reprint on Amazon)...C P. Dadant sells you on their big hives . Brother Adam in England is another who found the Modified Dadant hive, a good one..he used one with the wider frame spacing as the Dadants said you should, and had 11 frames in it. The Modified Dadant hives I used were made from wide boards I bought at a sawmill. I have a couple made out of basswood and a some made out of pine. The thing I like about them is I can have one brood box to look though not two......No I don't move them much and I only use the big Mofidied Dadant box for the brood chamber. If I do move them I use a two wheeled cart. I do use regular langstroth shallow supers for my supers, and it works good. To make a Modified Dadant Hive You can use two boards put together... I think it was in one of the old Dadant books (I have lots of old bee books, you would be surprised what you learn by reading them!) said you can use some tongue and groove boards put to gether to make the deep Modified Dadant hives since they don't make normal boards that wide any more. Here is a video I did on making my Modified Dadant hives, it shows my basswood hives and the homemade frames I made for them... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g5IGoogHi4
    Bee a blessing to God and others.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Thought I'd show you how the new hives are turning out since the subject is jumbo frames (Larger uninterrupted laying surface) comb.
    This one has top bars and will run foundationless or partial foundation mostly natural long comb in the bottom unit, superable on top. Clear access door is to not only enjoy the process and natural comb colony, but keep my eye on their progress and intervene before they make a mess, if they were inclined to do so. These top bars are 19" so are interchangeable with standard equipment.
















    Some top bars with a full sheet of foundation to get them started, some with just starter strips. I cut off the tapered edge on the foundation, glue, tapped in the grove and staple in in place. Staples basically hold the foundation straight until glue dries. I had a bunch of starter strips laying around for a couple years, a good chance to use them up.

    Although they won't do much with frames in the two end deeps, there is room there for a couple extra frames and an interior feeder on each side. Full deep is centered over colony.



    Except for flashing over the door to keep rain out and a cover for door to keep it dark, it is pretty much done.





    Or you can top it with two standard 10 frame equipment. Your seam is directly above the colony though. The other set up with a full deep above center and two half deeps on ether side is more centered, but you have two thick seams or dividers with that. Not sure which will be best. It probably depends on if you want the queen to move up or not. If she moves up with this system below, she'll likely stay in one box, offcentered and the other may get ignored.
    These box's are for surplus honey collection, possibly run with excluder in summer, then to allow the colony to move up over winter if necessary to feed. The amount of natural comb built in the fist year below will dictate whether they need to be supered the first winter or not.

    Last edited by Lauri; 02-01-2016 at 06:42 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Here's the 2 queen long hive design that takes standard frames or custom deeps





    You know the drainage needs for large colonies over winter. The strip of screen has worked well in previous years. The tilted solid portion is a new idea.



    Then I start stacking, 2 more layers for standard frames (or more depending on the depth of frame I want to use) I run a thick bead of clear silicone between each layer and screw together. Extra deep bottom board stays separate from the hive body unit.





    Add solid divider:







    I actually don't have much trouble with extra room underneath frames as long as I've given them adequate room above. This angled bottom board design is new, so well see what they do with it. It could easily accommodate jumbo deeps. Lots of room for large populations to congregate in summer. No bearding and plenty of ventilation.



    Each section interior is about 18" x 22 1/2", will fit 15 standard frames with a small amount of room for manipulation



    Colonies are secluded on each side until well established (Queens mated and laying well) then once frames are drawn and built up, can be supered and allowed to mingle above excluder on the center straddling divider below



    Queens have 15 frames below and 10 framed directly above their section, center deep is the only one that has excluder below



    When needing to be supered for honey production, excluders are placed on top the queenright sections and supered. I have not gotten to this stage yet and will post photos in a couple months.



    Last edited by Lauri; 01-31-2016 at 08:52 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Here is the actual operational stage so far, started mid summer with 5 frames of bees, capped queen cells and once mated and laying well, more drawn frames since they were started late and main flow was over. Fed well and blessed with a fall flow. Currently over wintering

    Fall photo:



    Center deep above excluder is full of capped honey and currently abandoned in January

    Below- January photo. You notice it's on it's own pallet and be easily moved with fork lift. These units probably would actually transport very well as long as you have a fork lift on Both ends:



    Last edited by Lauri; 02-01-2016 at 06:52 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Quote Originally Posted by frustrateddrone View Post
    That can be a positive. unlikely someone is going to steal your bees. If they are stolen you got a better shot at knowing who's the thief.
    Alas, frustrateddrone, that is nothing one can count on. Just last year - to name a single event of many - about one hundred Dadant jumbos were stolen from a commercial beekeeping in my area.

    RayMarler - it is interesting to hear that Dadant intended his jumbo hives for migratory beekeeping. They are the hive of preference where I live (at least if I am not wrong in equating Dadant deep and Dadant jumbo hives), and many beekeepers practice transhumance with them. Generally, two people are required to lift them, but a single person can get by if he is foolish enough to try (surely not speaking from my own experience!). Standard overwintering here is precisely as you have described - a single Dadant brood box, no supers.

    John
    Last edited by JohnBruceLeonard; 01-31-2016 at 11:10 PM.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    I cut up a single 2 X 6 X 8 to see how many end bars it would yield. I got 71 good end bar blanks and about 6 more that I culled. I estimate waste at 10% for knots, splits, and other damage. It is time consuming taking just shy of an hour to make 70 bars on my table saw. I can double that rate by cutting in bulk. I had to adjust the rip guide 3 times to make the required cuts with roughly a minute for each adjustment. These end bars blanks are 11 1/4 inches long by 1 3/8 inches wide by 7/16 inch thick. The next step is to cut the notches for the top bar and for the bottom bar and then drill for wires.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  20. #59
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBruceLeonard View Post
    ...RayMarler - it is interesting to hear that Dadant intended his jumbo hives for migratory beekeeping. They are the hive of preference where I live (at least if I am not wrong in equating Dadant deep and Dadant jumbo hives), and many beekeepers practice transhumance with them. Generally, two people are required to lift them, but a single person can get by if he is foolish enough to try (surely not speaking from my own experience!). Standard overwintering here is precisely as you have described - a single Dadant brood box, no supers.

    John
    Thank you John for correcting my fuzzy memory of my readings of the old beekeeping writings. I would imagine it to be quite a chore to use these Jumbo Hives for migratory pollination, taking more men or equipment to get them moved around. I'm only personally familiar with the way it is done here in California at the present time for almond pollination. It being such a large area and industry of monoculture, many beekeepers here use palletized hives and forklift tractors of some sort to load and unload off the trucks. I like hearing of how operations are done in other countries, and enjoy reading the old history of beekeeping and how it has evolved over the years.
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  21. #60
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    Default Re: jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?

    Quote Originally Posted by RayMarler View Post
    It being such a large area and industry of monoculture, many beekeepers here use palletized hives and forklift tractors of some sort to load and unload off the trucks.
    No doubt many of the large operations here in Sardinia are mechanized in a similar way. The rest of us get by as we can - and pray our backs will hold out! I found your original comment particularly interesting, as this year I have decided to keep my apiaries stationary.

    I agree totally - it is fascinating hearing about the different usages in different countries. Beekeeping allows for such charming variation, as demonstrated in this very thread by DarJones' manufacturing his own custom equipment, and Lauri's relentless experimentation.

    John

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